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Mobile Fidelity Analog Vinyl Controversy

KEM

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You're obsessing about irrelevant things. You don't have to ask yourselves any of those questions. The bit depth/rates are much more than sufficient. Unlike all analog where the record is a narrow frame through which you hear music. It's a bottle-neck.

back on topic, this thread made me realise that some people have problems with digital in itself. Like, no matter how good it sounds, I don't want it because it's digital. I hate to see this as it leads to religious fundamentalist type of mind-set. As in kosher or such, like did it ever touch what is unholy and pagan or "is she a virgin or is she going to hell?". This is the wrong way to look at things. The very fact it had digital in the path shouldn't matter. Whatever improves sound gets priority.

Having said that, if MOFI stated that it's all analogue and it's not something that consumers simply implied, than they DID misinform buyers which I always hate.
Relevance is different for every one of us. I have no problem with digital. I have a huge CD and download collection. I enjoy it.
My point is that I want to have confidence that an LP is all analog. It is a simple as that.
 
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killdozzer

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I am not an evangelist for anything one way or the other. I just don't like blanket, hyperbolic statements like 'this or that sucks'. Audio technology can have immense subtleties and I would hope that especially on a science based forum, that scientific method be practiced instead of doing the cheap thing by spouting generalizations - especially untrue ones.
I will point out how amusing I find these types of rhetoric where the entire forum proves to be less scientific if it doesn't accommodate ones personal choice and how a truly scientific approach would be to accommodate it. Everything else is usually spouting generalizations. I remember one other instance where no one here was scientific because our speakers are to small to reproduce music.
 

killdozzer

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Relevance is different for every one of us. I have no problem with digital. I have a huge CD and download collection. I enjoy it.
My point is that I want to have confidence that an LP is all analog. It is a simple as that.
Well, I'm not your enemy. I even said that if MOFI promised all analogue, you guys have a point.

But it's not really what you said. Let's not distort it now like a bad record ;)
I quoted you.
 

MattHooper

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A while back I actually pre-ordered the very expensive upcoming Mo-Fi Michael Jackson Thriller. Am I distressed to find out there was a DSD step involved? Not at all. I have no problem with that step being essentially sonically transparent. I simply expect, or hope for, the best sounding vinyl version of that album, however it was made.
 

killdozzer

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@Azazello13 I find the thread interesting. There's a small portion of people showing they care for the result which I understand as care for music in the end. This topic is very alive, we had a few good laughs at AudioBS facebook group. But, since I don't like to see anyone tricked, no matter how dumb I might think they are or to put it in other words, I never thought that "fools should be parted with money". I always hated that saying and thought it was barbaric. We can all get tricked in fields we know little about and no one is entirely immune. So the tricksters are the only problem and shouldn't get away with it.

I guess the question here is were they ever promised an entirely analogue chain? If yes, it's not OK on MOFI's side.

I do, of course, enjoy the karma and all of the entire ordeal. OTOH, no cable promise was ever delivered, so...

Oh, one more thing; I also remember this starting when Technics put out an amp that can DSP the phono channel, which i thought was amazing and would love to use it, but I remember a lot of people got really riled up. Also Back to Black had some complaints (but nowhere near as much) for their "redeeming" service. I guess it was new back then.
 
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Robin L

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Relevance is different for every one of us. I have no problem with digital. I have a huge CD and download collection. I enjoy it.
My point is that I want to have confidence that an LP is all analog. It is a simple as that.
Because current digital technology is transparent to source, a digital step is sonically meaningless.

The most common analog format---the LP---is guaranteed to be a step down in quality thanks to easily measured differences. This would apply to direct to disc LPs along with any other release where the electrical signal finds its way to the groove of an LP.

A digital recording in a digital envelope is guaranteed to be more sonically transparent than any recording with any analog steps before signal reaches the speaker.

A microphone---any microphone---will introduce more noise than digital recording as of 2022.
 

Cbdb2

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Clean, well cared for vinyl just doesn't pop and click like people say. Even my slightly abused old records don't. Besides I can run it through the Paradigm PW-Link (A recommended product here) and get really bad pops between songs that were dismissed as not being an issue.....
But the rumble and hiss is always there, not to mention the 10 other defects.
 

Cbdb2

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As stated before. If you can't hear the difference a digital step makes (and you cant) what difference does it make? This is just more audiophile stupidity.
And if it did make a difference it could make it better by reducing the number of analog steps. (no tape hiss)
 

MakeMineVinyl

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But the rumble and hiss is always there, not to mention the 10 other defects.
Rumble is an artifact of a bad turntable - it doesn't have anything to do with vinyl per se. I have my turntable in the same room with four 18" subwoofers, and I can't hear any rumble at all, and the cones of the subs don't move at all. I don't know precisely what you mean by 'hiss'. The base noise from vinyl is variable depending on a number of factors such as the original lacquer cut, the plating processes in manufacture, the quality of the vinyl compound used in the pressing, the care taken in the pressing cycle, how old the stampers are, and I'm sure there are others.

A good record is basically silent at normal listening levels once the needle is dropped into the groove. Obviously if I turn up the volume beyond the loudness that the acoustic instruments were originally, then there is noise. However that is also true of analog tape, and digital if you turn it up enough (usually with digital the limiting factor is noise somewhere along the reproduction chain, not the digital recording). In any event, if you turn up even a digital recording of acoustic music, you'll hear the environmental noise of the recording venue and electronic noise from microphones, mic preamps etc.
 
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Azazello13

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My point though was that I would like to have the confidence that an LP is all analog. Sound is not the issue with me. The thought that a company would tout their great LP mastering without telling us that there is a digital step is abhorrent.
Keep LPs analog.
Keep CDs, SACDs, downloads, and streaming digital.

OK. So whether you can hear it or not makes no difference, it's just some kind of purity thing. I mean, I assume based on what you say here that you would prefer these mastering houses transfer these masters to an analog tape (introducing some small degree of degradation) to even a hypothetically perfect transparent digital transfer anywhere in the process. Just because you think like should stay with like, or something.

I do thank you for stating it so clearly, but I guess I would just query whether this admitted preference on your part is constructive or useful in any way. From my perspective it seems Luddite and clearly wrong.
 

MattHooper

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But the rumble and hiss is always there,

I don't hear any rumble, generally speaking, when playing records.

And it's not like I couldn't detect it if audible or intrusive. In my job as a sound editor I'm conscious all day of listening past the content to any additional artifacts. For instance I'm currently working on a series that is a "period piece" and I have to be sure there isn't a hint of AC rumble, electronic buzzes, traffic rumble or anything denoting modern life in any of the tracks. So for instance I just eq'd some rumble out of a liquid dripping track I'm using.

But as I switch between my digital and vinyl records, I don't hear any additional "rumble" from records.

Something may be present in measurements perhaps, but that doesn't entail it is audible, or intrusive.

(And as for hiss..no I don't normally hear hiss during music content on my records. It's often barely audible at all in between tracks, but is easily masked by the SNR with music playing. Vinyl certainly does have it's liabilities, but in practice I personally find some of the emphasis on these disasterous sonic issues overblown. I have fabulous sounding digital tracks, and fabulous sounding vinyl).
 

Cbdb2

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Rumble is an artifact of a bad turntable - it doesn't have anything to do with vinyl per se. I have my turntable in the same room with four 18" subwoofers, and I can't hear any rumble at all, and the cones of the subs don't move at all. I don't know precisely what you mean by 'hiss'. The base noise from vinyl is variable depending on a number of factors such as the original lacquer cut, the plating processes in manufacture, the quality of the vinyl compound used in the pressing, the care taken in the pressing cycle, how old the stampers are, and I'm sure there are others.

A good record is basically silent at normal listening levels once the needle is dropped into the groove. Obviously if I turn up the volume beyond the loudness that the acoustic instruments were originally, then there is noise. However that is also true of analog tape, and digital if you turn it up enough (usually with digital the limiting factor is noise somewhere along the reproduction chain, not the digital recording). In any event, if you turn up even a digital recording of acoustic music, you'll hear the environmental noise of the recording venue and electronic noise from microphones, mic preamps etc.
So your saying you can't hear any noise between tracks? Thats new to me. Cds don't have that problem. Tape hiss was negligible once most studios started using Dolby SR NR, a long time ago. Proper studios have very low ambient noise, it usually doesn't show up on the recording. Electronics noise is effectively zero. On a good recording all the noise from vinyl is from the vinyl.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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So your saying you can't hear any noise between tracks? Thats new to me. Cds don't have that problem. Tape hiss was negligible once most studios started using Dolby A NR, a long time ago. Proper studios have very low ambient noise, it usually doesn't show up on the recording. Electronics noise is effectively zero. On a good recording all the noise from vinyl is from the vinyl.
It depends on the vinyl I'm playing. Some yes, some no. With good quality vinyl, always no. Truthfully, I far more often hear tape hiss from the original master of older recordings from vinyl, especially at the end of tracks where there is a splice to paper leader tape. The noise of these older tape masters (usually Scotch 111 or equivalent tape) is generally around -55dB below 185nWb/m operating level, excluding recording chain noise.

My studio here has extremely low noise because of construction, but mainly because I'm in a rural area where there is nothing to make noise. And yet when I record here, the meters on the DAW dance at around -60dB to -70db generally with an open microphone. When I was an engineer at Sound City, the quietest studio was studio "B" and at times the recording chain/room noise was enough to cause the VU meters to bump at the lowest part of their scale, and that is probably -40dB or so. Studio "A" was noisier because it was closer to the Van Nuys city streets and the room was much larger and more live. There was also electronic noise from the radar test facility of a defense contractor a mile or two south on the 405 freeway which occasionally intruded and ruined takes, but that is another story.

Truthfully, native vinyl noise from good pressings is a relatively minor contributor to total noise. Now if we're talking, say, Led Zepplin pressings from the 1970s, of course those were utter crap, and noisy as hell. In fact, classical Angel pressings of which I have a couple dozen in my collection from the 70s are massively noisy because of lack of care by Capitol records, which owned Angel.
 
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ta240

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I think you're abusing the notion of ab testing. People who claim there's a huge noticeable difference that goes in favor of records, don't need to put a CD before their listening session in order to truly appreciate the record. They never listen it in contrast. They simply say it's a huge difference for them and they don't like some (imaginary) digital harshness which they obviously didn't hear in this case.
Sorry, you can't use non-AB testing as proof in one instance and not in another.

Scientifically, (it's in the name of the site) if we take them not noticing as proof then we have to accept the times they do notice also as proof.

It is a theme I see over and over on here: as long as the results prove the sites stated argument then it doesn't matter how they were achieved. If they disprove it then the similar methods were flawed. I'm still waiting for the final "My wife came in from the kitchen and said 'Those two amps sound identical'" as proof that all amps sound the same though.

In theory, the copy with the digital step could be superior to everything they've heard up to that point but still not as good as a completely analog version and they would, rightfully, still say it sounded the best they'd heard. I'm not saying that is true but it is a possibility, until disproven.
 

killdozzer

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Sorry, you can't use non-AB testing as proof in one instance and not in another.

Scientifically, (it's in the name of the site) if we take them not noticing as proof then we have to accept the times they do notice also as proof.

It is a theme I see over and over on here: as long as the results prove the sites stated argument then it doesn't matter how they were achieved. If they disprove it then the similar methods were flawed. I'm still waiting for the final "My wife came in from the kitchen and said 'Those two amps sound identical'" as proof that all amps sound the same though.

In theory, the copy with the digital step could be superior to everything they've heard up to that point but still not as good as a completely analog version and they would, rightfully, still say it sounded the best they'd heard. I'm not saying that is true but it is a possibility, until disproven.
Well, I think you're wrong. Not hearing the difference was never AB-ed. That's wrong from the start.

Also, I see you're trying to say that it should always be tested, but this is also false. If I say I don't hear the difference between cables, proving is impossible and thus not asked of me or anyone. It's not the fact that it conforms with the site as much as that if you hear a difference it should be either captured or at least you could detect it every time.

But how would you AB not recognizing the difference as it is in this case?

The point is it's suppose to mean the world of difference to them and all hell of nasty things come from digital, oh but before you tell them, they didn't even know. Remember? It was when Fremer had to say if ABX doesn't prove the difference then the ABX testing is not good. :D

No, I think that the karma joke is spot on and I don't think you're supposed to AB it. And we did take the times they did notice it as proof, but it was 50/50, so not convincing. Simply; just as good as blind guessing.
 

hvbias

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A while back I actually pre-ordered the very expensive upcoming Mo-Fi Michael Jackson Thriller. Am I distressed to find out there was a DSD step involved? Not at all. I have no problem with that step being essentially sonically transparent. I simply expect, or hope for, the best sounding vinyl version of that album, however it was made.

Why not just buy the SACD that will be released at the same time?

Unless you think that DSD256 sounds so much better than DSD64 that is on the SACD? For the people that aren't completely abandoning Mofi now they are saying DSD256 is better than DSD64 so they will still buy the LP.

I personally don't think anything will be lost in the DSD256 to DSD64 on SACD.
 

Blumlein 88

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It depends on the vinyl I'm playing. Some yes, some no. With good quality vinyl, always no. Truthfully, I far more often hear tape hiss from the original master of older recordings from vinyl, especially at the end of tracks where there is a splice to paper leader tape. The noise of these older tape masters (usually Scotch 111 or equivalent tape) is generally around -55dB below 185nWb/m operating level, excluding recording chain noise.

My studio here has extremely low noise because of construction, but mainly because I'm in a rural area where there is nothing to make noise. And yet when I record here, the meters on the DAW dance at around -60dB to -70db generally with an open microphone. When I was an engineer at Sound City, the quietest studio was studio "B" and at times the recording chain/room noise was enough to cause the VU meters to bump at the lowest part of their scale, and that is probably -40dB or so. Studio "A" was noisier because it was closer to the Van Nuys city streets and the room was much larger and more live. There was also electronic noise from the radar test facility of a defense contractor a mile or two south on the 405 freeway which occasionally intruded and ruined takes, but that is another story.

Truthfully, native vinyl noise from good pressings is a relatively minor contributor to total noise. Now if we're talking, say, Led Zepplin pressings from the 1970s, of course those were utter crap, and noisy as hell. In fact, classical Angel pressings of which I have a couple dozen in my collection from the 70s are massively noisy because of lack of care by Capitol records, which owned Angel.
I agree though it isn't the norm, good vinyl on a good setup can be on the verge of not being audible. One of the better examples I've heard is a Sota Star Sapphire with a Souther linear tracking arm. On good clean newish LPs the noise is very nearly not there at normal listening levels. You would never notice it unless you stop and decide to try. Otherwise you'll probably say there isn't any. This was using ESL's which maybe don't reproduce the full low end rumble at the lowest frequencies, but also with a phono stage that doesn't attempt to go below 30 hz flat. Which in my opinion is the way for a phono to respond.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Why not just buy the SACD that will be released at the same time?
Speaking for myself, it comes down to the much richer tactile experience of a 12" gatefold record jacket with liner notes and high quality photos you don't have to boot up the computer to see.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I agree though it isn't the norm, good vinyl on a good setup can be on the verge of not being audible. One of the better examples I've heard is a Sota Star Sapphire with a Souther linear tracking arm. On good clean newish LPs the noise is very nearly not there at normal listening levels. You would never notice it unless you stop and decide to try. Otherwise you'll probably say there isn't any. This was using ESL's which maybe don't reproduce the full low end rumble at the lowest frequencies, but also with a phono stage that doesn't attempt to go below 30 hz flat. Which in my opinion is the way for a phono to respond.
My phono setup is good but not extravagant. Turntable = Thorens TD-125 MKII, arm = SME 3009, cartridge = Ortofon M2 Black LVB, and phono preamp = ProJect RS2. I've owned the Thorens and SME since I bought them in the early 70s. I have had to mount the turntable on the wall in order to avoid LF disturbance and feedback from the subwoofers which are about 10' away - although the RS2 has a low frequency rolloff, I've found I don't need to use it because the wall mounting isolates so well. I like the ProJect RS2 because it is extremely quiet and has a good deal of gain and loading options from the front panel.
 
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