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School Band Rehearsal Room Treatment

cbeeler

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Greetings!

I'm looking for treatment advice for my high school concert band's rehearsal room, and having read through a number of threads here, I felt like this was the best place to start.

Some information -

The room in question is approximately 42 feet by 29 feet with 10.5 foot tall ceilings.
There are 4 windows on one of the long walls that are about 4 feet by 4 feet, the rest of the wall is cinder block.
One of the short walls is faced with drywall and has some built in shelves that are carpeted. It also has an open doorway to the office/practice room area that is 5ish feet by 8ish feet.
The two remaining walls are solely cinder block construction.
The floor is polished concrete.
The ceiling is covered in what would be considered an "acoustic tile" to the the architects that designed the building in the late 50s/early 60s. Behind those tiles is plaster.
The ensembles that currently rehearse in this room range in size from 25 to 60 players.

As the room sits, there is no other acoustic treatment other than some door seals on the doors out to the hallway, and the room is very live/wet/loud. I'd like to tame it down enough to be able to pick out finer details, and help preserve the group's hearing. Should I be focusing my treatment more on absorption than diffusion?

Most of the reading I've done so far (on this forum and other places) is mainly focused in the theater and listening room realms, and I'm just not sure if those guidelines are a good starting point for us. I do plan on getting an RTA mic and running REW in the room to get some starting data once the building opens back up on August 1st.
 

sarumbear

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Greetings!

I'm looking for treatment advice for my high school concert band's rehearsal room, and having read through a number of threads here, I felt like this was the best place to start.

Some information -

The room in question is approximately 42 feet by 29 feet with 10.5 foot tall ceilings.
There are 4 windows on one of the long walls that are about 4 feet by 4 feet, the rest of the wall is cinder block.
One of the short walls is faced with drywall and has some built in shelves that are carpeted. It also has an open doorway to the office/practice room area that is 5ish feet by 8ish feet.
The two remaining walls are solely cinder block construction.
The floor is polished concrete.
The ceiling is covered in what would be considered an "acoustic tile" to the the architects that designed the building in the late 50s/early 60s. Behind those tiles is plaster.
The ensembles that currently rehearse in this room range in size from 25 to 60 players.

As the room sits, there is no other acoustic treatment other than some door seals on the doors out to the hallway, and the room is very live/wet/loud. I'd like to tame it down enough to be able to pick out finer details, and help preserve the group's hearing. Should I be focusing my treatment more on absorption than diffusion?

Most of the reading I've done so far (on this forum and other places) is mainly focused in the theater and listening room realms, and I'm just not sure if those guidelines are a good starting point for us. I do plan on getting an RTA mic and running REW in the room to get some starting data once the building opens back up on August 1st.
It’s a large room and lots of horns will play, which are loud. Unless you have a hefty budget your choices are limited. However, you can try to reduce the RT60 (reverberation time) by diffusing reflections from the ceiling.

Follow on the lines of what Royal Albert Hall in London did. Those domes do not absorb instead diffuse the sound by reducing parallel walls.

I’m an acoustician, if I can help, just ask.

CD178830-18E7-4513-A61A-045C302A29F2.jpeg
352625D6-8C4E-4ABD-9B77-A50D050E7938.jpeg
39704298-BC45-479D-88A0-EFA26206FC79.jpeg
 

puppet

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As a cheap approach ... if public school ... hang some heavy curtains against the walls. School District should be able to fund that as a starter.
 

sarumbear

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As a cheap approach ... if public school ... hang some heavy curtains against the walls. School District should be able to fund that as a starter.
That’s not a good solution. (Unless the curtains are hung a foot or more away from the wall.) You skew the rooms reverberation and it will sound bass heavy. Musicians will complain.
 

puppet

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That’s not a good solution. (Unless the curtains are hung a foot or more away from the wall.) You skew the rooms reverberation and it will sound bass heavy. Musicians will complain.
So, it will work .. or it won't? Which is it?
 

sarumbear

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So, it will work .. or it won't? Which is it?
I thought my explanation was clear. I will repeat: Unless you hang the heavy curtains at least a foot away from the walls it will not work.
 

puppet

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So, hanging curtains will work after all. Whew, had me going there .. sarumbear
 

sarumbear

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So, hanging curtains will work after all. Whew, had me going there .. sarumbear
You are missing the point I am making. When you hang curtains due to the way rail mounts are designed the curtains are flush with the wall. If you do that RT60 is only reduced on mid to high frequencies and that will make the room sound bass heavy, a worse result than a bright room. If you however place at least a foot between the wall and the curtains, using custom rail mounts then the bass to mid frequencies will also be absorbed. This is how bass traps work in principal.

I hope you now understood the difference made by curtain to wall spacing and the point I am making.
 

puppet

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(snip) .... and the point I am making.
Here's the point I'm making ... I suggested curtains .. you said that was a bad idea. Then you said it was OK to do if it's done a certain way. Some advice, next time ... if you want to add to a suggestion, just do that.
 

sarumbear

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Here's the point I'm making ... I suggested curtains .. you said that was a bad idea. Then you said it was OK to do if it's done a certain way. Some advice, next time ... if you want to add to a suggestion, just do that.
I am sorry that you couldn't understand what I said. If you say to someone hang curtains they will never space the fabric a foot away from the wall, hence just hang curtains is not the correct answer. I thought I made that caveat clear from the first post which I elaborated on later post.

Maybe it is the language barrier?
 
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cbeeler

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It’s a large room and lots of horns will play, which are loud. Unless you have a hefty budget your choices are limited. However, you can try to reduce the RT60 (reverberation time) by diffusing reflections from the ceiling.

Follow on the lines of what Royal Albert Hall in London did. Those domes do not absorb instead diffuse the sound by reducing parallel walls.

I’m an acoustician, if I can help, just ask.

View attachment 219555View attachment 219556View attachment 219557
For sure, lots of horns are going to be loud. My primary goal is to make the space more rehearsal friendly than it currently is. If ceiling diffusion is the lowest hanging fruit, I'll start there. Any advice as far as placement/quantities, or is that just a thing I'll need to play with? What would be a good next step if we have budget left?

Curtains were never really a consideration due to prior experience teaching in a room that was treated that way. The other two rehearsal rooms in that building were far and away better designed with only 2 parallel surfaces, and instrument cubbies on one of the parallel surfaces that provided some diffusion. At my current district, we especially can't afford to hang them a foot or more from the walls, as the room is already borderline too small for our largest ensemble.
 

sarumbear

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For sure, lots of horns are going to be loud. My primary goal is to make the space more rehearsal friendly than it currently is. If ceiling diffusion is the lowest hanging fruit, I'll start there. Any advice as far as placement/quantities, or is that just a thing I'll need to play with? What would be a good next step if we have budget left?
Here are some ready made products.


Curtains were never really a consideration due to prior experience teaching in a room that was treated that way. The other two rehearsal rooms in that building were far and away better designed with only 2 parallel surfaces, and instrument cubbies on one of the parallel surfaces that provided some diffusion. At my current district, we especially can't afford to hang them a foot or more from the walls, as the room is already borderline too small for our largest ensemble.
That is why I couldn't give @puppet a straight answer to use curtains or not. If you use the curtains the standard way the results will be bad as you have experience. If you hang them away from the walls they will work but then you loose floor area.
 
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sarumbear

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Thinking back to my school band, we could have done with a -50dB in the mids and trebles. Might have been a bit more bearable!
What is the unit for that -50dB?
 

theREALdotnet

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My experience with school bands is limited and likely not representative, but it has led me to believe that the best treatment consists of:
- gather the instruments
- put them in a small room
- lock the door
- throw away the key

;)
 
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cbeeler

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Thinking back to my school band, we could have done with a -50dB in the mids and trebles. Might have been a bit more bearable!
I try to make it very clear to them that balance is important, but even then, they do get a little shouty at times, ha.

Here are some ready made products.

Thanks for those. We're not opposed to a DIY solution, though, we also recognize that building those solutions to meet fire code will also incur additional expenses.
 

sarumbear

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I try to make it very clear to them that balance is important, but even then, they do get a little shouty at times, ha.


Thanks for those. We're not opposed to a DIY solution, though, we also recognize that building those solutions to meet fire code will also incur additional expenses.
The stumbling block with DIY is the curved structures. They can be done with a fibreglass if you can create a mould.
 

MRC01

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... the room is very live/wet/loud. I'd like to tame it down enough to be able to pick out finer details, and help preserve the group's hearing. Should I be focusing my treatment more on absorption than diffusion?

Most of the reading I've done so far (on this forum and other places) is mainly focused in the theater and listening room realms, and I'm just not sure if those guidelines are a good starting point for us. I do plan on getting an RTA mic and running REW in the room to get some starting data once the building opens back up on August 1st.
Most of the advice on this site is about making rooms sound better - not quieter. High school band rooms easily reach sustained SPLs exceeding 100 dB. Few things I've heard are louder (the deck of an aircraft carrier comes to mind - haha). To preserve the group's hearing, I recommend all band members wear musician's earplugs. Custom molds are best, but too expensive for a group of high school band members. Instead, Etymotic's ER20XS or ETY plugs work well enough - they don't muffle the sound like foam earplugs do.
 
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cbeeler

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The stumbling block with DIY is the curved structures. They can be done with a fibreglass if you can create a mould.
That's fair. I think we could probably handle the fiberglassing and mold making with the equipment we have at school and what I have at home. That said, again, cost comparisons will need to be made before deciding what route to go.
Most of the advice on this site is about making rooms sound better - not quieter. High school band rooms easily reach sustained SPLs exceeding 100 dB. Few things I've heard are louder (the deck of an aircraft carrier comes to mind - haha)...
Isn't that the truth... I wouldn't expect to have much in terms of significantly reducing the overall SPL of the room. The main issue I have with the room is that it has such a long reverberation time that makes it more difficult to pick out incorrect rhythms and pitches to fix than most other rooms I've had the fortune to teach in.
 
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