Cause of Listening Fatigue?

[redhermes]

New member here, with a question about listening fatigue.

I was watching a YouTube video (link below) where Andrew Scheps, a well known recording engineer, gave a talk at Google on audio quality.

At one point he theorizes that listening fatigue is caused by lossy compressed audio that sounds the same to the brain, but is missing information. The brain then “fills in” the missing parts. As a result, listening to audio that is lossy compressed is tiring, where as live and/or uncompressed music is not.

Could this be the case? How could it be falsified? Do any of the audio testing technique consider the effects of extended listening? Thoughts?

Thanks,
Bob

Link: Scheps Talk

 

[JPA]

Listening fatigue has been around since long before lossy compression was invented.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't believe there's any one answer. It's obviously psychology and it will very from person-to-person. I'd guess it mostly involves your taste in music and the loudness. And the overall sound quality is likely a factor. If there's a lot of background (or foreground) noise it's unpleasant to listen to. Or other audio defects can be unpleasant, or degraded sound may just be less enjoyable.

I'd ignore any comments about certain speakers (etc.) being fatiguing unless the reviewer explains exactly WHY he/she found the sound to be fatiguing.

At one point he theorizes that listening fatigue is caused by lossy compressed audio that sounds the same to the brain, but is missing information. The brain then “fills in” the missing parts. As a result, listening to audio that is lossy compressed is tiring, where as live and/or uncompressed music is not.

I'm not buying that at all! Lossy compression mostly works by throwing away details that you can't hear anyway. It analyzes the sound and throws-away sounds that are drowned-out by other sounds.

A high-quality lossy file can sound identical to the uncompressed original, or you may have to listen very-carefully and A/B to hear the difference. If you hear a compression artifact you don't normally hear "something missing" but people often measure reduced or missing high frequencies when comparing an MP3 to the original. (Those high frequencies are thrown-away because they are weak and our hearing is not as-sensitive to those highest harmonics so they are drowned-out by other less-high frequencies.)

A low quality MP3 can sound bad and that could be annoying and fatiguing.

 

[kongwee]

Just check the SPL level whether it is too loud. Have a youtube playlist and can listen for hours, not being too loud.

 

[LTig]

I'm not buying that at all! Lossy compression mostly works by throwing away details that you can't hear anyway. It analyzes the sound and throws-away sounds that are drowned-out by other sounds.

I think "throwing away details you can't hear" means that the brain suppresses details the ear has actually registered. If this is true compressed audio would give the brain less work to do and not more.

 

[DMill]

I always assumed it to be a subjective term trying to describe speakers that might seem overly bright to the reviewers ears. I’ve not experienced it in my life in any literal way.

 

[Owl]

About five years ago I purchased a good used Magnavox/Phillips CD player at a second hand store for about $8.00. CDB560 I believe. I have been listening to CD's from the beginning, and this is the only player or DAC that has given me ear fatigue. Even at low volume it becomes tiring very quickly, in spite of the beloved Phillips TDA1541 DAC chip. I have since installed a Khadas tone board DAC inside and powered it from 5 volts going to the IR remote circuit. Now it sounds great.

 

[majingotan]

At reference 80-85 dB SPL listening volume, it's 100% mixing and mastering job were all over the place rather than the audio reproduction gears (yes including those that measure horribly) that causes listening fatigue. Also, your current physical and mental state matters a lot. A person who is currently feeling tired/stressed (especially working long hours on mixing and mastering tracks) will certainly feel listening fatigue and will cause inconsistent mastering quality on some tracks in an album

 

[Shanman]

Listening fatigue= Klipsch

 

[solderdude]

One can get listening fatigue from certain headphones even with well made recordings so it does not seem to be related to 'dynamic compression' only.

There are obviously more reasons for listening fatigue like resonances, too wonky frequency response, distortion, mental things and listening level to name but a few.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

New member here, with a question about listening fatigue.

I was watching a YouTube video (link below) where Andrew Scheps, a well known recording engineer, gave a talk at Google on audio quality.

At one point he theorizes that listening fatigue is caused by lossy compressed audio that sounds the same to the brain, but is missing information. The brain then “fills in” the missing parts. As a result, listening to audio that is lossy compressed is tiring, where as live and/or uncompressed music is not.

Could this be the case? How could it be falsified? Do any of the audio testing technique consider the effects of extended listening? Thoughts?

Thanks,
Bob

Link: Scheps Talk

This can be verified in a controlled experiment, requires some effort though, because you need several listeners and a suitable location to do the test. Then when sufficient data has been collected, a conclusion can be made using statistic analysis. Without such a test, the hypothesis is just pure speculation.

My take on listening fatigue is that it is directly correlated to sound level exposure. Very loud == short time before fatigue, low listening level == listen all day long with no problem other than eventually getting bored listening to music, and thus prefer to turn it off.

Does better sound quality reduce listening fatigue? Maybe. But, if it is too loud, the ears will get tired, regardless of "quality". A full-capacity system in a good room may enable louder listening for some limited time, you sure get the impression that it is possible to play louder without experiencing the sound to be too loud, when there is no distortion and reflected energy from the room is controlled. Again, this is also just a hypothesis with no verified data to back up this claim. A good solution is to have a system that sounds very good at low volume, so you can turn it down and still enjoy.

 

[redhermes]

This can be verified in a controlled experiment, requires some effort though, because you need several listeners and a suitable location to do the test. Then when sufficient data has been collected, a conclusion can be made using statistic analysis. Without such a test, the hypothesis is just pure speculation.

My take on listening fatigue is that it is directly correlated to sound level exposure. Very loud == short time before fatigue, low listening level == listen all day long with no problem other than eventually getting bored listening to music, and thus prefer to turn it off.

Does better sound quality reduce listening fatigue? Maybe. But, if it is too loud, the ears will get tired, regardless of "quality". A full-capacity system in a good room may enable louder listening for some limited time, you sure get the impression that it is possible to play louder without experiencing the sound to be too loud, when there is no distortion and reflected energy from the room is controlled. Again, this is also just a hypothesis with no verified data to back up this claim. A good solution is to have a system that sounds very good at low volume, so you can turn it down and still enjoy.

I like this explanation and it matches my own experience. Thanks

 

[redhermes]

I don't believe there's any one answer. It's obviously psychology and it will very from person-to-person. I'd guess it mostly involves your taste in music and the loudness. And the overall sound quality is likely a factor. If there's a lot of background (or foreground) noise it's unpleasant to listen to. Or other audio defects can be unpleasant, or degraded sound may just be less enjoyable.

I'd ignore any comments about certain speakers (etc.) being fatiguing unless the reviewer explains exactly WHY he/she found the sound to be fatiguing.


I'm not buying that at all! Lossy compression mostly works by throwing away details that you can't hear anyway. It analyzes the sound and throws-away sounds that are drowned-out by other sounds.

A high-quality lossy file can sound identical to the uncompressed original, or you may have to listen very-carefully and A/B to hear the difference. If you hear a compression artifact you don't normally hear "something missing" but people often measure reduced or missing high frequencies when comparing an MP3 to the original. (Those high frequencies are thrown-away because they are weak and our hearing is not as-sensitive to those highest harmonics so they are drowned-out by other less-high frequencies.)

A low quality MP3 can sound bad and that could be annoying and fatiguing.

Interesting, thanks

 

[MattHooper]

The glassy midrange of digital....obviously.

 

[majingotan]

The glassy midrange of digital....obviously.

Does NOT exist on my setup (I never ever use EQ as well)

 

[Waxx]

Does better sound quality reduce listening fatigue? Maybe. But, if it is too loud, the ears will get tired, regardless of "quality". A full-capacity system in a good room may enable louder listening for some limited time, you sure get the impression that it is possible to play louder without experiencing the sound to be too loud, when there is no distortion and reflected energy from the room is controlled. Again, this is also just a hypothesis with no verified data to back up this claim. A good solution is to have a system that sounds very good at low volume, so you can turn it down and still enjoy.

That doesn't explain why i can go to parties (mostly dub soundsystem dances) and concerts (can be everything for me) where the music is extreme loud (often +100dB for dub dances, so earplugs are needed), and don't get ear fatigue, and has problems with listening to certain speakers at 80dB or even less after a hour or so.

I personally think it has multiple reasons, inbalance in sound where the treble is too much (like Kiplish speakers) is certainly a factor. Non harmonic distortion also, just like digital clipping of sound. And there may be more factors. But scientific research on that is probally the most needed research for audio reproductioin these days. That is the biggest issue now for me when listening to systems and i would love to know the origin of it.

 

[Sokel]

Boring music.
Untrained musicians doing childish errors.
Bad mood.
Lack of mid-bass (matter of taste).

Thats when I get tired.

 

[Bjorn]

Research indicates that compression of music can cause listening fatigue more easily compared to lossless or high-rez. So there's some truth in that.

But obviously this is only reason and there are multiple others. For instance:
- Higher order THD
- Crossover distortion from amplifiers
- Unbalanced frequency response
- Crossover in a sensitive area
- Poor acoustics with flutter echo, a high level of specular reflections and/or low frequency resonances
- Specular energy from certain angles
- Diffraction issues (typically from speaker cabinet)
- Poor recordrings and combined with higher SPL over time
- Mood of the day

One of the things that's very enjoyable with very high "resolution" speakers and electronics and preferably combined with larger woofers is that one can listen to lower levels and it's still engaging to listen to. And lower levels over time causes less listening fatigue.

 

[goat76]

I think "throwing away details you can't hear" means that the brain suppresses details the ear has actually registered. If this is true compressed audio would give the brain less work to do and not more.

I don't think it's just about "throwing away details you can't hear" that Andrew Scheps is talking about, there are a lot of people who can hear the difference between lossless and lossy compression in blind tests. So, the things Andrew is talking about are the small missing details that are filtered out just because they are "less likely to be heard". His theory is that those missing details are expected by the listener, and make their brain "fill in the gaps", which in turn causes listening fatigue in the long run.

I have seen Andrew's presentation a few times and I think he got a point, but it's a few years old, and the compression algorithms are probably better nowadays. I think he focused on low-quality Mp3s at 128k, and those are certainly taking away details that can otherwise be heard.
But I'm still open to the idea that even higher quality data compression can lead to listening fatigue, the human brain is a complex organ.

 

[Chromatischism]

It's mostly a function of SPL and frequency over time. Too much of some sounds is just too much sound, especially in and around our ear's natural resonant frequency range.