Denafrips Ares II - is it really worth it?

[Angsty]

I think the bigger issue here is when do measurements no longer matter? Can people really tell a 110 dB SINAD DAC from a 120 dB DAC? Outside of laboratory conditions, I seriously doubt it. So, when the measurable differences become tiny to irrelevant, I'd expect personal preference to become more dominant in component selection.

For instance, because I have a mostly Bryston system, I would prefer to have a Bryston BDA-3 to a Topping E30. But, I would greatly prefer to pay the E30 price. If the price differential were not an issue, I'd buy the BDA-3. I probably could not hear a difference in a blind, level-matched test, but I'd be happier with the Bryston on aesthetic grounds alone.

 

[Mart68]

I think the bigger issue here is when do measurements no longer matter? Can people really tell a 110 dB SINAD DAC from a 120 dB DAC? Outside of laboratory conditions, I seriously doubt it. So, when the measurable differences become tiny to irrelevant, I'd expect personal preference to become more dominant in component selection.

SINAD not the only determinator of SQ but all else being equal I think you would have to be a trained listener to have any hope of differentiating between 110 and 120.

Regrettably a lot of audiophiles think they are trained listeners just because they spend so much time listening to the equipment trying to hear differences. In reality we are no more discerning than someone you pull in randomly off the street.

 

[noise17]

Interesting way to miss the whole point ? by knowledge that for example DAC's performing as good as most modern DAC's do or that cables dont affect the sound , this can be safely ignored and one can focus on things that matter for a greater musical experience and don't spend any more time continuously ( and needlessly ) "uppgrade" DAC's etc.
This makes the hobby cost less and there are less issues and headaches to fuss over.

You can spend time getting some more good music instead of obsseing over a power cable what a relief .

It is however fun to fuss about , I'm researching for a future speaker uppgrade instead

Not saying it isn't fun - I was responding to someone who was taking schiit for expressing a subjective opinion.

 

[noise17]

@noise17
I enjoyed your take as I have an interest in cars too and judge equipment by listening with measurements as an added bonus, but not the final decision in any regard. Measurements is why Hyundai buyers exist over Honda buyers lol. I wouldn't assume the forum is mostly near field listeners. I think that may come from the reviews that are mostly light weight items and easily shipped for reviews by forum members.

BTW, a Camry is a better car than the Miata based on if one prefers a smooth highway car, trunk space, room for four people. The Miata is definitely more fun to drive and a great weekend car and I would love to have one. So basically it is one preferences. I think on this forum there are a myriad of people here with measurement vs listening and a mixture. I think the discussions go overboard when one person who prefers measurements (or visa versa) does not accept the other's point of view as legitimate. But the forum is mostly measurement oriented and others like myself use other audio enthusiast forums(AK for example) that are more inclusive.

My point was aimed at enthusiasts. I could have worded it better. On paper, the Camry has better specs in almost every way from trunk space to power... so so spec based enthusiasts would pass over the MX-5 for the Camry while wishing they could afford a Cayenne Turbo GT over a 911 GT. Although, I'm driving a Cayenne Turbo GT right now and it is hilarious. Pointless, but hilariously fast and fun. I don't know what the DAC equivalent of that would be. MSB?

 

[Angsty]

My point was aimed at enthusiasts. I could have worded it better. On paper, the Camry has better specs in almost every way from trunk space to power... so so spec based enthusiasts would pass over the MX-5 for the Camry while wishing they could afford a Cayenne Turbo GT over a 911 GT. Although, I'm driving a Cayenne Turbo GT right now and it is hilarious. Pointless, but hilariously fast and fun. I don't know what the DAC equivalent of that would be. MSB?

The price on a MSB *is* hilarious.

Audio buffs can spend money on whatever they like. We just need to note the difference between preference and performance.

 

[chocomamey]

That's probably the case for most people. The rest likes to imagine a difference to justify the purchase.

Or maybe it's the case that they need to have something that's different from what the majority is able to afford.?

After comparing a burr brown DAC, 2 different ESS dacs, a dual Wolfson DAC and a new rohm DAC (smsl d300) I can only say there is next to no difference.

And the difference is probably from filters and upsampling.

Im in that wagon ..jumped from a topping E30 to an Smsl su9 and now to the Topping e50 ...Thinkin about dropped out analog side of Lps and save more for an r2r like denafrips ares II or musician pegassus because the Hype but had that fear of not noticing a big change in sound.

 

[raif71]

Im in that wagon ..jumped from a topping E30 to an Smsl su9 and now to the Topping e50 ...Thinkin about dropped out analog side of Lps and save more for an r2r like denafrips ares II or musician pegassus because the Hype but had that fear of not noticing a big change in sound.

You won't know until you try. Most objectivists here will say that it will not matter. Honestly speaking, after getting the ares II, I didn't really find that it made such a difference compared to my Gustard X16. In a stack that I have with a preamp, 3 DACs are connected to it.... Ares II, X16 and Audio-gd r2r11. The preamp is then connected to Singxer SA1. Ares II and X16 to me sounds similar but r2r11 is weaker compared to the other two. Depends on my mood, which DAC I choose to listen to. Anyway that's just me and I do have other setups too...once in a while rotating them. This hobby is really fun

 

[chocomamey]

You won't know until you try. Most objectivists here will say that it will not matter. Honestly speaking, after getting the ares II, I didn't really find that it made such a difference compared to my Gustard X16. In a stack that I have with a preamp, 3 DACs are connected to it.... Ares II, X16 and Audio-gd r2r11. The preamp is then connected to Singxer SA1. Ares II and X16 to me sounds similar but r2r11 is weaker compared to the other two. Depends on my mood, which DAC I choose to listen to. Anyway that's just me and I do have other setups too...once in a while rotating them. This hobby is really fun

yes.. I had previously smsl Su9 and now this e50 and like that punchy agressive sound . Denafrips never heard one r2r before but I understand that sounds mellow as a cassette like sound but with a monster soundstage,

 

[Miroslav]

Hi everyone! A long time reader, but the first time poster here. Just wanted to share some observations on this DAC.

The reason for me to buy the Ares II was mainly curiosity. I own an Audio-GD Master 11, but recently wanted to revamp my whole system, especially for the Master 11 being huge and not desktop-friendly). So I bought Topping E50 (it measures well, very compact and it cost me less than 200 USD), and Ares II (as to my knowledge being the only affordable R2R that measures decently).

I connected both DACs to my Topping PA5, running KEF LS50 Metas, via balanced cables, ran the same tracks through Roon using "group" feature to fully sync playback, volume-matched from my listening position using some cheap SPL meter and attenuation on E50, and switched between DACs with PA5's front toggle.

I could not hear any difference. Any. Freaking. Difference. I asked my partner than to do a DBT for me, and I scored perfect 50% guesswork.

That was discouraging. Not only because of a price difference (200 USD vs 960 USD shipped to my location), but these two designed and engeneerd so differently, that it must have at least a subtle effect on a sound. My testing methodology might be flawed, or my hearing impaired in some way (I had a chemo several years ago), but it is what it is. R2R just doesn't make sense for me.

I'm not doing any type of generalisation here. Several years ago I've done a very similar test with Matrix mini-i pro, Shiit Bifrost (multibit 1st gen) and an Audio-GD Master 11, and I could clearly spot a subtle differences, backed by the DBT. But in case of E50 and Ares II I just couldn't. So, E50 probably can be my endgame for now, and this is kinda sad.

 

[Angsty]

Hi everyone! A long time reader, but the first time poster here. Just wanted to share some observations on this DAC.

The reason for me to buy the Ares II was mainly curiosity. I own an Audio-GD Master 11, but recently wanted to revamp my whole system, especially for the Master 11 being huge and not desktop-friendly). So I bought Topping E50 (it measures well, very compact and it cost me less than 200 USD), and Ares II (as to my knowledge being the only affordable R2R that measures decently).

I connected both DACs to my Topping PA5, running KEF LS50 Metas, via balanced cables, ran the same tracks through Roon using "group" feature to fully sync playback, volume-matched from my listening position using some cheap SPL meter and attenuation on E50, and switched between DACs with PA5's front toggle.

I could not hear any difference. Any. Freaking. Difference. I asked my partner than to do a DBT for me, and I scored perfect 50% guesswork.

That was discouraging. Not only because of a price difference (200 USD vs 960 USD shipped to my location), but these two designed and engeneerd so differently, that it must have at least a subtle effect on a sound. My testing methodology might be flawed, or my hearing impaired in some way (I had a chemo several years ago), but it is what it is. R2R just doesn't make sense for me.

I'm not doing any type of generalisation here. Several years ago I've done a very similar test with Matrix mini-i pro, Shiit Bifrost (multibit 1st gen) and an Audio-GD Master 11, and I could clearly spot a subtle differences, backed by the DBT. But in case of E50 and Ares II I just couldn't. So, E50 probably can be my endgame for now, and this is kinda sad.

The worst kept secret in audio is that well-measuring DACs really don’t sound different.

 

[Miroslav]

The worst kept secret in audio is that well-measuring DACs really don’t sound different.

Some 20 years into the hobby and 10+ DACs owned I tend to agree. The ones that I could spot in DBT also happened to have some measurable artefacts (like naive TDA1543 implementations with poor noise performance, or a 1st gen Bifrost with not so flat FR, can't remember what was wrong with the PCM1704-based Audio-GD, but i'ts an ancient DAC anyway).

 

[J Ratcliffe]

This thread is all over the place. What did the OP buy in the end?

 

[maty]

I connected both DACs to my Topping PA5, running KEF LS50 Metas, via balanced cables, ran the same tracks through Roon using "group" feature to fully sync playback, volume-matched from my listening position using some cheap SPL meter and attenuation on E50, and switched between DACs with PA5's front toggle.

I could not hear any difference. Any. Freaking. Difference. I asked my partner than to do a DBT for me, and I scored perfect 50% guesswork...

I can hear the differences between some DACs here, Denafrips Ares II too.

Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

Latencies of up to 200 ms have been reported. That’s a decent-sized buffer too large to account for clock mismatch.

www.audiosciencereview.com

And different amplifiers too.

 

[Miroslav]

And different amplifiers too

Sure, why not. When I changed my old faithful Maratntz PM7001 for the PA5 I could spot a difference in DBT on higher volume levels, there are more distortions in bass region on Marantz.

 

[Snoopy]

Hi everyone! A long time reader, but the first time poster here. Just wanted to share some observations on this DAC.

The reason for me to buy the Ares II was mainly curiosity. I own an Audio-GD Master 11, but recently wanted to revamp my whole system, especially for the Master 11 being huge and not desktop-friendly). So I bought Topping E50 (it measures well, very compact and it cost me less than 200 USD), and Ares II (as to my knowledge being the only affordable R2R that measures decently).

I connected both DACs to my Topping PA5, running KEF LS50 Metas, via balanced cables, ran the same tracks through Roon using "group" feature to fully sync playback, volume-matched from my listening position using some cheap SPL meter and attenuation on E50, and switched between DACs with PA5's front toggle.

I could not hear any difference. Any. Freaking. Difference. I asked my partner than to do a DBT for me, and I scored perfect 50% guesswork.

That was discouraging. Not only because of a price difference (200 USD vs 960 USD shipped to my location), but these two designed and engeneerd so differently, that it must have at least a subtle effect on a sound. My testing methodology might be flawed, or my hearing impaired in some way (I had a chemo several years ago), but it is what it is. R2R just doesn't make sense for me.

I'm not doing any type of generalisation here. Several years ago I've done a very similar test with Matrix mini-i pro, Shiit Bifrost (multibit 1st gen) and an Audio-GD Master 11, and I could clearly spot a subtle differences, backed by the DBT. But in case of E50 and Ares II I just couldn't. So, E50 probably can be my endgame for now, and this is kinda sad.

I tried this with the Hifiman EF400 (R2R) Vs my SMSL stack D300+SP400 and Singxer SA1+Cambridge cxn V2..

Upsampled everything in roon to the same volume, Equilizer etc.. and the differences where not really worth talking about really.

 

[tbrobison]

Hi everyone! A long time reader, but the first time poster here. Just wanted to share some observations on this DAC.

The reason for me to buy the Ares II was mainly curiosity. I own an Audio-GD Master 11, but recently wanted to revamp my whole system, especially for the Master 11 being huge and not desktop-friendly). So I bought Topping E50 (it measures well, very compact and it cost me less than 200 USD), and Ares II (as to my knowledge being the only affordable R2R that measures decently).

I connected both DACs to my Topping PA5, running KEF LS50 Metas, via balanced cables, ran the same tracks through Roon using "group" feature to fully sync playback, volume-matched from my listening position using some cheap SPL meter and attenuation on E50, and switched between DACs with PA5's front toggle.

I could not hear any difference. Any. Freaking. Difference. I asked my partner than to do a DBT for me, and I scored perfect 50% guesswork.

That was discouraging. Not only because of a price difference (200 USD vs 960 USD shipped to my location), but these two designed and engeneerd so differently, that it must have at least a subtle effect on a sound. My testing methodology might be flawed, or my hearing impaired in some way (I had a chemo several years ago), but it is what it is. R2R just doesn't make sense for me.

I'm not doing any type of generalisation here. Several years ago I've done a very similar test with Matrix mini-i pro, Shiit Bifrost (multibit 1st gen) and an Audio-GD Master 11, and I could clearly spot a subtle differences, backed by the DBT. But in case of E50 and Ares II I just couldn't. So, E50 probably can be my endgame for now, and this is kinda sad.

Your experience, and your partner's, mirror mine and my wife's. I kept the Denefrips for less than 48 hours before finding a buyer.

 

[AudioAddict]

Have been using RME products since the 90s and jumped on the ADI-2 DAC when it first came out. Use 2 of them and they are superb -- as reviewed elsewhere in this forum.
Several years ago, got interested in vinyl and started acquiring pre-1982 analog releases. When all was near mint or better, the sound with high-end TTs got me hooked on analog.
Then, when I switched back to the RMEs, found that the overall listening result was a bit too sterile and harsh. Analog instruments seemed one dimensional and "flat."
Read about the Ares II and decided to give it a try. In my system there is a significant difference in sound quality between the RME and Ares II. The RME is more precise and the Ares II has more soundstage depth.
Like them both and use them about equally. For longer listening sessions find that the Ares II does not produce the listening fatigue I notice with the RME.
Worth noting that this fatigue only appeared when I became accustomed to analog vinyl. Plenty of sound issues with vinyl and find that the best overall sound comes from R2R tape -- when recorded from an analog master. Digital recordings then converted to tape do not appeal.

 

[maty]

Worth noting that this fatigue only appeared when I became accustomed to analog vinyl. Plenty of sound issues with vinyl and find that the best overall sound comes from R2R tape -- when recorded from an analog master. Digital recordings then converted to tape do not appeal.

You can try the VST plugin PKHarmonic

Announcing beta-test of PKHarmonic VST plugin

As discussed in a separate thread, this is a beta-test of a VST (Windows) plugin to allow you to dial-in an arbitrary amount of harmonic distortion while playing music with your favorite music player. Now you can enjoy that second harmonic without investing many thousands of $$$ into a tube...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As I have been improving the audio in my second system I have been lowering the magnitude of the harmonics. I use the plugin if necessary. Usually only PE and Convolution (made with Rephase).

 

[AudioAddict]

Thanks, maty -- this is excellent advice. Use JRiver exclusively for my digital feeds and, in the past, have run convolution filters from RME to JRiver to tune rooms. While this works splendidly in terms of FR, there is a very slight loss of presence. As a result, have been sending sources through without the filter. But use the filter in my sound studio.
Will download the plugin and give it a try. Being able to "analogize" digital has some appeal. Many have been noting that a certain amount of harmonic distortion has a curious appeal. When I tell people that I am getting the best overall result from R2R tape and that the best way i can describe the sound quality is "effortless analog precision" they point out the harmonic distortion.
So, yep, there's this distortion but the timbral accuracy is significantly better with R2R tape than with high-res digital (for analog instruments and, of course, on my system).
Go figure, right?

 

[maty]

The albums that I like the most usually have them in different formats. Almost always the best sound comes from vinyl or its ripping (with RME ADC many of them, for years, before the arrival of his famous dac RME ADI-2 ). Yes, I have R2R tape recordings too.

Now Playing + What are you listening to?

Françoise Hardy - Soleil Françoise Hardy - Soleil (1970), Vinyl, Hispavox, Spain https://www.discogs.com/Fran%C3%A7oise-Hardy-Soleil/release/3644195 DR Peak RMS...

www.diyaudio.com

My problem: the main audio system is "hijacked" by TV and...