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Kii/8C PSI shootout at Kore Studios

andreasmaaan

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I don’t think it is the amps, we had the Grimm LS1s they use Hypex and don’t sound ‘dry’ had the Mola-mola iterations with my horns again no different from A/B.
Keith

I second that. Would be hard to believe the 8C amps are so poor that they are audibly different from the Kii. I do suspect that the Kiis have lower transducer distortion however...
 

Soniclife

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The motion feedback on the Kii woofer seems like something that should be audible, else why bother.
 
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Purité Audio

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The motion feedback on the Kii woofer seems like something that should be audible, else why bother.
The Kiis I believe don’t have motion feedback , as far as I am aware only the Grimm subwoofers?
I must admit I had always assumed they used motion feedback because it is mentioned in the 6 Moons review.
Keith
 

hvbias

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Many classical musicians were audiophiles in that they were quite excited for digital recording.

Here is a picture of one of my favorite pianists Claudio Arrau at the opening of the Polygram CD manufacturing plant. He was so excited about digital recording that he re-recorded nearly all of the Beethoven piano sonatas again.

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My best friend's mom is a violinist specializing in baroque era music and she doesn't care what she listens on. They have a Bose all in one CD player/speaker system in their dining room that we listen to music on when cooking and in the living some Cerwin Vega looking fridge type speakers connected to old 80s or 90s CD player and amps. Even with that relatively primitive equipment she would instantly be able to make accurate assessments on performances, mistakes, etc.

Just like Toole said we are capable of "listening through" bad rooms I think that applies to any number of things once one is used to equipment.
 

Guermantes

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My best friend's mom is a violinist specializing in baroque era music and she doesn't care what she listens on. They have a Bose all in one CD player/speaker system in their dining room that we listen to music on when cooking and in the living some Cerwin Vega looking fridge type speakers connected to old 80s or 90s CD player and amps. Even with that relatively primitive equipment she would instantly be able to make accurate assessments on performances, mistakes, etc.

Just like Toole said we are capable of "listening through" bad rooms I think that applies to any number of things once one is used to equipment.

I wonder if many musicians are more focused on symbolic content in recordings (i.e. notes, harmonic relationships, playing style, etc.) rather than the more concrete aspects of recording quality and reproduction. As long as those symbolic aspects of the music are intelligible, the replay equipment is fit-for-purpose.

Then again, violinists are known to fixate on the tonal variations between Stradivarii . . .
 

Guermantes

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Interesting to see similar research being carried out and similar responses to it as we see to questions about audio reproduction.

Yes, I've read about that study. It confirms for me that the audiophile mindset is actually part of a bigger picture of psychology and personal narrative. Advertising agencies understand this well. The picture of the D&D 8c in the living room posted earlier is all about that narrative -- there is nothing in that shot that makes a rational argument about why they sound superior.

I actually like the approach of the second article you linked in that it concedes that the modern instrument may be objectively better but that music making and listening is heavily psychological and we should accept the influence of an instrument's reputation on its "sound". I like this especially:

"It’s also worth seeking to understand what violinists value most, as the researchers wrote in their earlier study. A musician’s relationship with an instrument goes beyond measurable acoustic features, and can be deeply personal. This became painfully apparent when the prodigy Min Kym temporarily stopped playing and fell into a depression after her Stradivarius was stolen in 2010."​
It is a deeply personal relationship. To be separated from an object that acts as a conduit for personal expression, that has become part of your identity, can be traumatic. If my apartment was on fire and I had the choice to save either my hi-fi or my classical guitar, I'd grab the guitar with no hesitation.
 

andreasmaaan

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Yes, I've read about that study. It confirms for me that the audiophile mindset is actually part of a bigger picture of psychology and personal narrative. Advertising agencies understand this well. The picture of the D&D 8c in the living room posted earlier is all about that narrative -- there is nothing in that shot that makes a rational argument about why they sound superior.

I actually like the approach of the second article you linked in that it concedes that the modern instrument may be objectively better but that music making and listening is heavily psychological and we should accept the influence of an instrument's reputation on its "sound". I like this especially:

"It’s also worth seeking to understand what violinists value most, as the researchers wrote in their earlier study. A musician’s relationship with an instrument goes beyond measurable acoustic features, and can be deeply personal. This became painfully apparent when the prodigy Min Kym temporarily stopped playing and fell into a depression after her Stradivarius was stolen in 2010."​
It is a deeply personal relationship. To be separated from an object that acts as a conduit for personal expression, that has become part of your identity, can be traumatic. If my apartment was on fire and I had the choice to save either my hi-fi or my classical guitar, I'd grab the guitar with no hesitation.

+1

On second reading, I realise it was premature to compare that article to typical audiophile attacks on measurements or blind listening. It's quite a different point.

Nice you have that kind of relationship to your instrument. In terms of instruments I only have a couple machines around these days and only dabble in playing them, so I don't have the same feelings anymore as I did when I played sax or piano years ago. But I can relate :)
 

Sal1950

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If my apartment was on fire and I had the choice to save either my hi-fi or my classical guitar, I'd grab the guitar with no hesitation.
I have a number of friends that are dedicated and accomplished musicians though none financially strong.
In the instances they were the recipient of a windfall, they put it towards new instruments and the supporting gear, not HiFi.
 
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Gareth Malone who is on the BBC a lot, singing mostly, bought a Benchmark dac from us, does that count
He was as nice in real life as his on screen persona.
Keith
 

hvbias

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Interesting to see similar research being carried out and similar responses to it as we see to questions about audio reproduction.

I remember this study as well, expectation bias permeates through every facet of life. I am so glad we have RCTs/meta analysis in medicine, I can't even imagine where we would be without them.
 

Thomas savage

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Gareth Malone who is on the BBC a lot, singing mostly, bought a Benchmark dac from us, does that count
He was as nice in real life as his on screen persona.
Keith
‘How many folks that have been on tv have bought this ‘ .. I think we could at last be onto a measurement that would carry meaning for everyone.
 

Thomas savage

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I wonder if many musicians are more focused on symbolic content in recordings (i.e. notes, harmonic relationships, playing style, etc.) rather than the more concrete aspects of recording quality and reproduction. As long as those symbolic aspects of the music are intelligible, the replay equipment is fit-for-purpose.

Then again, violinists are known to fixate on the tonal variations between Stradivarii . . .
I thought this yesterday when reading though this thread, umm,, intresting .
 

Sal1950

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I thought this yesterday when reading though this thread, umm,, intresting .
There you go thinking again, every time you start that things run off the tracks. :facepalm:
 

RayDunzl

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‘How many folks that have been on tv have bought this ‘ .. I think we could at last be onto a measurement that would carry meaning for everyone.

You may be on to something there.

I confess I was in the audience for this show (but not this episode)

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And just to reinforce the point of conjecture, this one, too...

1544123645708.png
 

Sal1950

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And just to reinforce the point of conjecture, this one, too...
They sure didn't spend much on building a set in those days, did they.
Things that get forgotten in the memories eye. lol
 

Guermantes

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I think it would be fascinating to see what different parts of the brain were most active while listening to reproduced music for:

1. A professional musician
2. An audiophile
3. An audio engineer
4. Someone who is none of the above

Perhaps this has been covered in Sacks' and Levitan's books on music and neuroscience.
 

andreasmaaan

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I think it would be fascinating to see what different parts of the brain were most active while listening to reproduced music for:

1. A professional musician
2. An audiophile
3. An audio engineer
4. Someone who is none of the above

Perhaps this has been covered in Sacks' and Levitan's books on music and neuroscience.

I'm reading Sacks now. No mention of it thus far...
 

Guermantes

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The first high-end audio system I ever saw was in the home of a former Boston Symphony member. His principal instrument cost substantially less than his audio system. (Needless to say, he was not a string player.)

I'm a former musician, too, and got into this hobby largely because of my interest in listening to classical music.

I remember being a very poor undergrad piano student and one day having to go to my teacher's home for a catch up lesson. I walked into the music room and saw an entire wall stacked with thousands of CDs. This was the late eighties when the format was still relatively new and at a premium price. Unfortunately I didn't take note of the replay system.
 
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