GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

[noiseangel]

I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe try to listen to a speaker that is considered well-engineered? It may change that person's mind about what to expect out of a speaker. Also, its a damn treat to listen to one. (Personally I don't like either speaker--each has its own problems; remember that FR is only one aspect of speakers--so I don't really care in this case.)


Have you not read a single review here? There is a subjective portion to the reviews too (which to me is the less important part of the review but whatever). And if you need ANOTHER anecdote, I have heard these and they are awful. So we cancel each other out? What now? Do we need more random internet opinions? If you hate science so much why don't you go to another place where everything is special? At least here there is serious thought behind accolade or criticism. Debate is certainly welcome here, but be respectful enough to try to understand the basic engineering concepts and ideas that go into actually making speakers and don't just blather on as if an anecdote means anything. Do you not believe that measurements can tell us things our ears can't? Would you dismiss microscopes? Would you prefer a subjective review of television color accuracy? Or do you believe in golden eyes? Imagine the stupidity of such a youtube channel and you'll understand a lot of these audio reviewers. You are welcome to like more green tint, that is your choice, but do you not recognize the benefits of color accuracy and range? Or even of how it can help you with your preferences?

That's not fair, I said they were terrible and had the crap bashed out of me, you say they sound awful and get away with it. Perhaps I should have said they are terribly awful or awfully terrible and everyone would have left me alone. I have heard them too so I'm not just saying this to talk crap which is is why i said they are terrible. Is terrible worse than awful or is awful worse than terrible? We need a scale here. Maybe someone can invent one. What about 0-10 where zero is rubbish and 10 is not rubbish?

As for the 2k dip and 1.5k hole maybe the Klipsch bean counters said here's $42 make me a speaker. After spending the allocated $42 they had no money to correct the dip, so that's how the speaker left the factory.

 

[kokakolia]

As for the 2k dip and 1.5k hole maybe the Klipsch bean counters said here's $42 make me a speaker. After spending the allocated $42 they had no money to correct the dip, so that's how the speaker left the factory.

Hyperbole. But somewhat agree. Every manufacturer makes compromises to reach a price point. Andrew Jones even stated that he didn't have much money to work with (when talking about ELAC Debut Reference).

Folks who work in the Hi-fi industry aren't known to be rich. The R&D, logistics, marketing and component costs are so high and the margins are so low. There are many hidden costs.

Knowing this, you can buy used/vintage or DIY your own speakers to save money. Moreover, older units often go on clearance with huge discounts. The KEF LS50 is selling for 600€ right now since the KEF LS50 Meta release.

I decided to spend a lot more money and go to boutique speaker brands which don't compromise. But you're looking at ~2000€ (or more) per pair for a bookshelf speaker.

You have options.

 

[USER]

That's not fair, I said they were terrible and had the crap bashed out of me, you say they sound awful and get away with it.

If you read again you'll notice I said that in the context of who cares what I think. My point is that actual technical discussion is more useful than anecdotes. Others criticized you but by scrutinizing what the speaker does. Fair game. You can choose to debate on those terms or not but please don't cry about this.

As far as the FR, I've already noted that many believe that it was likely tuned that way so that they stand out in showrooms and people gravitate to them there and then, with long term enjoyment taking a back seat to a quick sale.

 

[BDWoody]

You represent the ASR mindset of imposing a particular sound profile (typically harman curve) by force.

That's so silly...

No one is imposing anything on anyone.

 

[tomtoo]

That's so silly...

No one is imposing anything on anyone.

Its even more than silly couse the (non existing) harma curve for speakers is a linear FR.

 

[Doodski]

Its even more than silly couse the (non existing) harma curve for speakers is a linear FR.

...and if a unit adheres to the Harman Curve then it should be EQ'able. Even if it is flat it should be EQ'able.

 

[USER]

Yeesh ! These are all valid points but it looks like you're physically incapable of recognizing subjectivity.

I am not sure of how I physically recognize subjectivity, but are you not paying attention? I carve out space for personal preference again and again in my responses and even presented my own. But there is a difference between that and me taking it seriously in how it is used in audio discourse and marketing. What's crazy about not taking random people on the internet seriously? Have these people done blind comparisons with proper level matching? Do you not know how easily swayed your hearing and attention are? Or about bias? Was I not talking about research that looks into preference that has people score speakers? Your problem is that you are not attentive. I recognize that you have your own taste but based on all this should *I* trust your subjective opinion over state of the art data and analysis by experts who have devoted their lives to this?

 

[noiseangel]

If you read again you'll notice I said that in the context of who cares what I think. My point is that actual technical discussion is more useful than anecdotes. Others criticized you but by scrutinizing what the speaker does. Fair game. You can choose to debate on those terms or not but please don't cry about this.

As far as the FR, I've already noted that many believe that it was likely tuned that way so that they stand out in showrooms and people gravitate to them there and then, with long term enjoyment taking a back seat to a quick sale.

Absolutely correct. I don't care what others think. Its what I think that matters to me and I stand by what I said. I have heard them and plenty of other speakers to make a valid judgement about what I think is "good sound" and Klipsch isn't it...FOR ME. Technical discussion. They are harsh, edgy, tinny, bright and fatiguing to listen to...FOR ME. Nothing Danny or anyone else can do will make this speaker listenable in any way, shape or form...FOR ME. Except to put it in an open fire pit and let me listen to the crackle of particle board as it turns into earth warming CO2. I'm not crying either I don't own a pair.

 

[tomtoo]

...and if a unit adheres to the Harman Curve then it should be EQ'able. Even if it is flat it should be EQ'able.

What shows that at least we two are not dogmatic about a linear FR as long you can EQ.

 

[DSJR]

The audiophool mindset - that the music is a subjective thing and who cares about the technical side as long as the music is presented in a nice musical way - This mindset has been answered above brilliantly a few posts up I think.

It's years since I heard any Klipsch speakers but this model's ancestors from twenty years back (still with copper coloured cones I recall) were basically thin toned tinny-top screamers and not especially pleasant, even in a shop demonstration. I applaud their attempts now in the v2 versions to refine the basic designs into something rather less aggressive and if these third party revisions work on older models, someone will reverse-engineer the mods sans the silly tube connectors and foo caps and get basically the same sound for less parts costs?

 

[SuicideSquid]

I'd hate to think I'm so frozen by a purchase of a Klipsch speaker where I think the hopeful alternative is to modify it....just never been that much of a Klipsch fan either. Some of their old legacy giant corner speakers were interesting but not interesting enough to ever want to buy otoh....

I don't understand this perspective. If I already bought the speaker, I want to improve my sound, and I don't want to invest in buying new speakers, this seems a fun little project and a cost-effective way to get better sound.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't understand this perspective. If I already bought the speaker, I want to improve my sound, and I don't want to invest in buying new speakers, this seems a fun little project and a cost-effective way to get better sound.

Was more thinking why would I buy those speakers in the first place then have to spend half as much again to make them measure decently I suppose just doesn't appeal to me at all. Plus, spending money on Danny's bs stuff definitely doesn't appeal either (now maybe if he just offered the crossover alone at a more reasonable cost....)

 

[Feyire]

You've got two (possible) issues mixed up. As you pointed out, "hysteresis distortion" is frequency dependent -- what you left out is the fact that at the relatively low frequencies and impedances involved in an amp-to-speaker circuit and the tiny mass of a steel binding post nut, that effect is so minuscule as to be irrelevant.

For me personally, it doesn't matter how miniscule this negative effect may be, I don't want it to be a possibility in the first place. Therefore, if I have to choose between a little poison or no poison, I'll choose no poison.

Now, in a cored inductor, the ferromagnetic mass is generally not "in the signal path" (i.e. electrically connected to the rest of the circuit) per se -- and the reason we don't usually see cored inductors on the tweeter side of a crossover is not principally to avoid hysteresis distortion,

Have you ever attempted to replace an air core inductor on a tweeter crossover with an equivalent iron core inductor? An unpleasant sonic surprise awaits.

but rather a simple practicality: because of the low inductances required for that part of the circuitry, we can use air core inductors without the size of those components getting out of hand like they would given the much higher inductance(s) required on the woofer side, where the effect of hysteresis may well be measurable, if unlikely to be audible.

Air cored inductors will indeed be physically larger than their cored counterparts for the same inductance value. They'll also be much more costly and require additional consideration in order to conform to EMC regulations. However, if signal purity is the main goal, then I'm more than happy to adapt to these extra requirements.

A use case where hysteresis distortion is relevant and sometimes audible is in the inductors used in the output circuits of Class D amplifiers, where the inductor has to pass the entire audio spectrum rather than the few lower octaves involved in driving a woofer or subwoofer. Bruno's paper on the phenomenon is fascinating: This Thing We Have About Hysteresis Distortion

I'm well aware of this and have already performed modifications (i.e. replaced the iron core inductor with a pure copper air core inductor) in the output filter of my class D amps (NC400) to remove the issue of hysteresis.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Have you ever attempted to replace an air core inductor on a tweeter crossover with an equivalent iron core inductor? An unpleasant sonic surprise awaits.

What makes you think I'd be surprised?

 

[GWolfman]

There is a certain amount of irony in this statement.

At least willing to put forth the effort I suppose, as it should've been the manufacturer to supply a proper product from the beginning.

 

[noiseangel]

At least willing to put forth the effort I suppose, as it should've been the manufacturer to supply a proper product from the beginning.

And Klipsch didn't even supply crackers and cheese with that dip.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Just my hot take here, to many folks who have not heard the speaker chiming in. It also seems that the objective data here is being widely interpreted.
The data is decent, with the most import aspect being the design takes well to PEQ.
With PEQ applied the speaker objectively is really decent.
The only argument left is do you like a pretty narrow dispersion design.
Don't have a PEQ?
Get one 1st and learn to use it.
It will only help with nearly every speaker in the anechoic sense and then will help with every single speaker in addressing issues below the listening room transition zone.
The miniDSP 2x4HD is $220, it can be used with many speakers to come. Buy and skip the crossover mod, but do use some Sonic Barrier from PE on the cabinets. (or No rEZ)

Given the choice for about the same price range, something little DIY, compared to the Klipsch and that upgrade and time spent doing it all you still wouldn't end up anywhere near this. No EQ needed. No Danny upgrade needed. Terrible is an appropriate word for me.

SHOP | css-audio

www.css-audio.com

So with no Klippel test, no anechoic test, not even a DIY spinorama, why are you so sure about this? Because Cheap Audio Man shilled it for beer? (love him as an entertainer though) Tharbamar, made a nice set as well. He is so gentle and even he prolly turned down the beer and went for the Kombucha like me. (I like him as an entertainer as well)

a 22mm Tweeter with no notable waveguide
mated to a extremely robust Wavecore 7" woofer.

I would be very, very surprised if this thing does well in the midrange and has even dispersion. I have to guess there is some pretty evident directivity error in there.
My money is on it NOT being worth the costs all things considered.

It is a great woofer, the Wavecore (I mean rebranded as CSS identical to the og Wavecore) is famous for hitting deeper bass with authority than a typical 6.5-7" but it is a pretty thick beast.
The tweeter is OEM and is tiny. I mean tiny. Yes Burchart pulled off the 3/4" to 6" (not 7")
But they used a 6.5" waveguide.

Prove this CSS speaker measures well.

 

[noiseangel]

Just my hot take here, to many folks who have not heard the speaker chiming in. It also seems that the objective data here is being widely interpreted.
The data is decent, with the most import aspect being the design takes well to PEQ.
With PEQ applied the speaker objectively is really decent.
The only argument left is do you like a pretty narrow dispersion design.
Don't have a PEQ?
Get one 1st and learn to use it.
It will only help with nearly every speaker in the anechoic sense and then will help with every single speaker in addressing issues below the listening room transition zone.
The miniDSP 2x4HD is $220, it can be used with many speakers to come. Buy and skip the crossover mod, but do use some Sonic Barrier from PE on the cabinets. (or No rEZ)



So with no Klippel test, no anechoic test, not even a DIY spinorama, why are you so sure about this? Because Cheap Audio Man shilled it for beer? (love him as an entertainer though) Tharbamar, made a nice set as well. He is so gentle and even he prolly turned down the beer and went for the Kombucha like me. (I like him as an entertainer as well)

a 22mm Tweeter with no notable waveguide
mated to a extremely robust Wavecore 7" woofer.

I would be very, very surprised if this thing does well in the midrange and has even dispersion. I have to guess there is some pretty evident directivity error in there.
My money is on it NOT being worth the costs all things considered.

It is a great woofer, the Wavecore (I mean rebranded as CSS identical to the og Wavecore) is famous for hitting deeper bass with authority than a typical 6.5-7" but it is a pretty thick beast.
The tweeter is OEM and is tiny. I mean tiny. Yes Burchart pulled off the 3/4" to 6" (not 7")
But they used a 6.5" waveguide.

Prove this CSS speaker measures well.

So you think that I should go out and spend more money on a PEQ to fix up what is clearly a terrible loudspeaker just to satisfy you that that a PEQ will right the wrongs that in all honesty, this speaker should never have made it on to the market with such poor faults in the first place? Are you kidding?

This speaker was never put through the tests by Klipsch that you are saying the little CSS should be put through. If it was then clearly Klipsch are getting very crap at their job or they just don't care anymore. I wouldn't own let alone use a miniDSP to start off with, I would make a smarter choice of speaker. And the smarter choice would be to not buy this speaker, spend money on Danny's upgrade and then spend a further $220 on a miniDSP and then buy myself a Klippel to test it all. Just to satisfy you that I have learnt to use a PEQ and fix up a crap speaker? Tell Klipsch to do a better job and we wouldn't even be having a go at each other, this thread would cease to exist and all would be well in the world.

 

[ROOSKIE]

So you think that I should go out and spend more money on a PEQ to fix up what is clearly a terrible loudspeaker just to satisfy you that that a PEQ will right the wrongs that in all honesty, this speaker should never have made it on to the market with such poor faults in the first place? Are you kidding?

This speaker was never put through the tests by Klipsch that you are saying the little CSS should be put through. If it was then clearly Klipsch are getting very crap at their job or they just don't care anymore. I wouldn't own let alone use a miniDSP to start off with, I would make a smarter choice of speaker. And the smarter choice would be to not buy this speaker, spend money on Danny's upgrade and then spend a further $220 on a miniDSP and then buy myself a Klippel to test it all. Just to satisfy you that I have learnt to use a PEQ and fix up a crap speaker? Tell Klipsch to do a better job and we wouldn't even be having a go at each other, this thread would cease to exist and all would be well in the world.

I said skip the mod and just buy the MiniDSP. It costs less then the passive components and can be used with one's next pair of speakers.
I do think the cabinet needs the SonicBarrier/No Rez though.

So did you understand my points about the CSS speaker you touted as an obviously better choice?
You skipped discussing that and ranted instead.

So you would never buy a miniDSP. What methods are you employing for addressing room modes and other issues that DSP can easily moderate?

It is 2022. You prolly want to look into using DSP in some meaningful form.

 

[noiseangel]

I said skip the mod and just buy the MiniDSP. It costs less then the passive components and can be used with one's next pair of speakers.
I do think the cabinet needs the SonicBarrier/No Rez though.

So did you understand my points about the CSS speaker you touted as an obviously better choice?
You skipped discussing that and ranted instead.

So you would never buy a miniDSP. What methods are you employing for addressing room modes and other issues that DSP can easily moderate?

It is 2022. You prolly want to look into using DSP in some meaningful form.

I never said the CSS was a better choice.

"Given the choice for about the same price range, something little DIY, compared to the Klipsch and that upgrade and time spent doing it all you still wouldn't end up anywhere near this. No EQ needed. No Danny upgrade needed. Terrible is an appropriate word for me."

No touting here, never said it was better or worse. Perhaps CSS might be kind enough to send the little speaker in to Amir for testing. It would be interesting to see. I will pay CSS the freight no problems because I believe they cannot possibly be worse than the Krapsch.

No I don't need a miniDSP. I am fortunate enough to own one of these https://analog-precision.com/home/up2/ so no I "prolly" don't need to look into using DSP in some meaningful form. I have what I consider to be the best already. Thanks for the advice.

The best correction is room correction. And don't buy these speakers.