Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[Dj7675]

Agreed, though as someone mentioned, it doesn't seem to be as bad lately, may be one of the FW updates changed something or it could just be getting used to it. Regardless, I have been experimenting with lowering the surround channels using the trims and I like it better simply by lowering the levels by 1 to 2 dB. I tried more and didn't like it as much. It should be fixable via FW but I guess D+M won't do it unless enough people complain about it.

By the way, you have the Trinnov Atitude right, does it has a similar feature?

What makes the surround levels hard though is if you lower them so they aren't too loud at low volumes, at higher volumes they won't be loud enough... I tried that as well and I always thought I was fiddling with channel levels and not worth the hassle.
No I don't have a Tinnov, I have a storm MK2. It does not have loudness compensation. But it does have excellent tone controls via their remote app to raise/lower bass and/or sub levels. So at low volume I bump up the bass 2 or 3 clicks until it sounds good. My preference would be to have variable loudness control but at least there are very good tone controls to adjust when needed. My understanding is Trinnov does not have tone controls, or loudness compensation. Of course with both processors, you could set up presets for low volume listening but I haven't bothered to do that yet. I can't understand why any processor would not have tone controls to help with poor recordings etc...

 

[Chromatischism]

I have been experimenting with lowering the surround channels using the trims and I like it better simply by lowering the levels by 1 to 2 dB. I tried more and didn't like it as much. It should be fixable via FW but I guess D+M won't do it unless enough people complain about it.

I brought it up in their initial Q+A in December and was sort of brushed off as if it were a preference that's easily adjustable. It is adjustable, but many of us are contending that it's not a preference, but objectively wrong.

Anyway, I mitigate it by reducing the levels as well. I found the surround left and right needed around -3 to -5 to match the other speakers. My RLO is always dialed in at 0. When I did this at the master volume level I use most which is -20, the small tracking error as I went +/-5 of that isn't noticable to me. When I measure it, there is a drift of around 1.0 (I don't have access to my measurements at the moment) on the surround SPL.

 

[Dj7675]

DEQ is only "broken" for surround use if you don't correct what it's doing.

I brought it up in their initial Q+A in December and was sort of brushed off as if it were a preference that's easily adjustable. It is adjustable, but many of us are contending that it's not a preference, but objectively wrong.

Anyway, I mitigate it by reducing the levels as well. I found the surround left and right needed around -3 to -5 to match the other speakers. My RLO is always dialed in at 0. When I did this at the master volume level I use most which is -20, the small tracking error as I went +/-5 of that isn't noticable to me. When I measure it, there is a drift of around 1.0 (I don't have access to my measurements at the moment) on the surround SPL.

It can be mitigated, but when I lowered surround levels when I had the denon and DEQ engaged, the surround levels were wrong and by too much for me at various volumes. Some will like the boosting of levels of surrounds, some can't live with it, and others will lower surround levels to enjoy the benefits of DEQ boosting the bass for low volume listening. I just fell in the group of couldn't live with the compromise of adjusting surround levels down.

 

[Chromatischism]

I don't know, I'm not saying you didn't hear what you did, but I only measured a drift of around 1 dB relative to the front speakers when adding or subtracting 10 from the MV, which I don't notice.

 

[abdo123]

Dirac would love to sell you their $500 license for Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) to do this. Cheaper and more flexible to go the miniDSP/MSO route.

DLBC will always be superior though. None of the alternative solutions will adjust phase for all seats.

 

[tjcinnamon]

DLBC will always be superior though. None of the alternative solutions will adjust phase for all seats.

MSO does.

 

[abdo123]

MSO does.

No it doesn’t.

 

[peng]

It can be mitigated, but when I lowered surround levels when I had the denon and DEQ engaged, the surround levels were wrong and by too much for me at various volumes. Some will like the boosting of levels of surrounds, some can't live with it, and others will lower surround levels to enjoy the benefits of DEQ boosting the bass for low volume listening. I just fell in the group of couldn't live with the compromise of adjusting surround levels down.

Again, Denon should fix this via FW and do something better in their 2022/23 models. Lowering the surround levels is just better than not doing anything, and yes it is an inconvenience to have to make adjustments if one listens to at various master volume setting often though in my case I can live with that as I typically have my mv within a narrow range (-23 to -15 at the most). Dirac PC standalone without DEQ works fine for me because I can have multiple target curves and it is super easy to switch from one to the other. Can you do that with your Storm/Dirac instead of using tone control?

 

[Dj7675]

Again, Denon should fix this via FW and do something better in their 2022/23 models. Lowering the surround levels is just better than not doing anything, and yes it is an inconvenience to have to make adjustments if one listens to at various master volume setting often though in my case I can live with that as I typically have my mv within a narrow range (-23 to -15 at the most). Dirac PC standalone without DEQ works fine for me because I can have multiple target curves and it is super easy to switch from one to the other. Can you do that with your Storm/Dirac instead of using tone control?

Yes, I could do different presets, for example one for low volume listening. Not sure what the max number of presets is for the Storm, but I have had 8 or nine when experimenting, so not sure what the maximum is. Maybe D+M have adjusted surround level boost. I wish I had measured it at the time, but in my setup at the time it was very noticeable and bothersome.l Reminds me I should ought to set up a low volume curve.

 

[GalZohar]

What is not clear to me is whether the surround boost is supposed to be good or bad in the scenario where a 4.1/5.1 system's surround speakers are placed more towards the back of the room due to placement restrictions, or rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup. Seems like boosting side surrounds is supposedly a false concept as we don't have any biological reasons to justify it, but what about sounds from behind? Is the Audyssey assumption wrong there, too?
Maybe I also don't notice the excessive surround boost because the sound is coming more from behind for me so it deserves a bit of a boost anyway (not necessarily related to loudness compensation?

I find it rather surprising that outside Audyssey, very few loudness compensation features exist, and those that do often can't work at the same time as the room correction. It seems like such a basic feature for the home user. But maybe there's a reason... There are many don't seem to like DEQ but it's difficult to gather the real reasons that cause it. Just like many don't like Audyssey, but so far my conclusion has been that all/most of them weren't using it optimally and/or weren't making fair comparisons.

 

[chych7]

No it doesn’t.

MSO computes delays and PEQs, which affect phase. When optimizing across multiple subwoofers, I think it uses phase (either directly or indirectly) as a knob across multiple subs to sum/cancel peaks/nulls.

In any case, I wonder how much phase, by itself, is audible. I can understand that if the left/right speakers are out of phase, that will sound wrong (i.e. flip the phase on one speaker, it's audible in stereo, but not when listening to just a single speaker). In my own testing of Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac, Dirac had higher L/R phase error than Audyssey:

Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

We all understand that incorrect position. There is no miscommunication. Have you tried taking confirmatory measurements properly - same area, random sample points? Incorrect position, aping measure point? He's only talking about an apples to apples comparison in a specific sense. You are...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[chych7]

Odd to me that people have DEQ/surround issues. I use DEQ and my surrounds sound just fine, with default levels set by MultEQ-X. My surrounds don't extend that deep, rolls-off around 80 Hz naturally (which is also where the crossover is set). Do people with DEQ/surround issues have surround speakers that extend low? In MultEQ-X you can also specify a low freq cutoff (can't do this in the app), I wonder if that would help DEQ issues.

 

[abdo123]

MSO computes delays and PEQs, which affect phase. When optimizing across multiple subwoofers, I think it uses phase (either directly or indirectly) as a knob across multiple subs to sum/cancel peaks/nulls.

In any case, I wonder how much phase, by itself, is audible. I can understand that if the left/right speakers are out of phase, that will sound wrong (i.e. flip the phase on one speaker, it's audible in stereo, but not when listening to just a single speaker). In my own testing of Audyssey XT32 vs. Dirac, Dirac had higher L/R phase error than Audyssey:

Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

We all understand that incorrect position. There is no miscommunication. Have you tried taking confirmatory measurements properly - same area, random sample points? Incorrect position, aping measure point? He's only talking about an apples to apples comparison in a specific sense. You are...

audiosciencereview.com

Regular Dirac corrects phase only for the main listening position, so if you calculate phase error across several seats it will be higher with correction than something that just uses delays to make sure the incidence of sound occurs at the same time.

 

[andyc56]

None of the alternative solutions will adjust phase for all seats.

Can you restate this claim? As it stands, the statement is a non sequitur.

 

[abdo123]

Can you restate this claim? As it stands, the statement is a non sequitur.

Here is a video from Erin nterviewing head of product management in Dirac Research. Late in the video He describes in detail how DLBC works. It's far beyond anything the industry offers (except maybe some storm audio and trinnov stuff)

 

[andyc56]

Here is a video from Erin nterviewing head of product management in Dirac Research. Late in the video He describes in detail how DLBC works. It's far beyond anything the industry offers (except maybe some storm audio and trinnov stuff)

A simple "no" would have sufficed here.

 

[abdo123]

A simple "no" would have sufficed here.

So you're upset i provided you with a more reliable source to explain what i meant with my statement than myself?

 

[andyc56]

So you're upset i provided you with a more reliable source to explain what i meant with my statement than myself?

If you make a claim, you should be able to:
1) Clarify what you mean by the claim
2) Back up the claim
You haven't done either of those things.

 

[abdo123]

If you make a claim, you should be able to:
1) Clarify what you mean by the claim
2) Back up the claim
You haven't done either of those things.

Lets make one thing clear here. I have no obligation whatsoever to do anything for you.

I have provided what is essentially word of god in this context. Take it or leave it.

 

[andyc56]

Lets make one thing clear here. I have no obligation whatsoever to do anything for you.

I have provided what is essentially word of god in this context. Take it or leave it.

Amazing.