• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Moondrop Blessing 2 Review (IEM)

Rate this IEM:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 15 6.8%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 99 44.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 106 47.7%

  • Total voters
    222

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
Ok granted, what I said before, if IEM 1 has much faster transients than IEM 2 with otherwise identical FR, there would be a difference in the dynamical rendering, but the overall sound characteristics would remain the same. And in the example discussed above, I doubt that there is such a huge dynamical difference resulting in large audible differences, i.e. Moondrop S8 and Variations should sound very much a like, the Galaxy Buds+ might be a bit more sluggish and thus not that resolving.
I agree it depends heavily on the IEMs being considered, but I think differences in dynamic capability can result in large audible differences in IEMs with similar tonality, even if they're from the same manufacturer. The only Moondrop IEM I've heard is the B2Dusk, but I've seen reviews describing the S8 as smooth and lush while I've never seen any reviews describe the Variations as such. It seems to me that the S8, despite having similar tonality, is better with microdynamics (more precise control over small volume changes) leading to audibly smoother transients, more audible texture, and deeper soundstage (perhaps at the cost of some raw clarity). If anyone in this thread has both IEMs, please feel free to correct me.

This kind of stuff is also heavily on the person listening. Some people are going to be more sensitive to hearing these kinds of differences and some people just aren't care about these kinds of differences because it doesn't directly impact their enjoyment of music. But it definitely matters to some ears.
 

Garrincha

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Messages
659
Likes
816
I agree it depends heavily on the IEMs being considered, but I think differences in dynamic capability can result in large audible differences in IEMs with similar tonality, even if they're from the same manufacturer. The only Moondrop IEM I've heard is the B2Dusk, but I've seen reviews describing the S8 as smooth and lush while I've never seen any reviews describe the Variations as such. It seems to me that the S8, despite having similar tonality, is better with microdynamics (more precise control over small volume changes) leading to audibly smoother transients, more audible texture, and deeper soundstage (perhaps at the cost of some raw clarity). If anyone in this thread has both IEMs, please feel free to correct me.

This kind of stuff is also heavily on the person listening. Some people are going to be more sensitive to hearing these kinds of differences and some people just aren't care about these kinds of differences because it doesn't directly impact their enjoyment of music. But it definitely matters to some ears.
So you seriously now relate the subjectiv listening experiences of IEMs you never had or listened to made by other people to make any point? Sorry, this will lead nowhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RHO

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
So you seriously now relate the subjectiv listening experiences of IEMs you never had or listened to made by other people to make any point? Sorry, this will lead nowhere.
Fair, but it's just as futile to rely entirely on FR to make points about IEMs you've never heard. FR is extremely limited. Dynamics are missing. There, that's my point without using subjective experiences.
 

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium
That is subjective. Those micro and macro dynamics are invented by subjectivists.
Real measurable dynamic capabilities rarely are an issue in real practical applications. I don't think many will listen that loud.
 

Chyżwar

Active Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
152
Likes
177
Dynamics are missing.

What does that even mean? Most commercial music has a dynamic range around 10 dB or less! Jazz music around 20 dB. Some classical music recordings may have a dynamic range around 60 dB (and listening to such recorded music can be problematic at home but that's another topic).
I really doubt that any modern headphones have a problem with reproducing dynamics, and all this talk about dynamics, microdynamics in audiophile reviews is probably nonsense.
 

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
That is subjective. Those micro and macro dynamics are invented by subjectivists.
Real measurable dynamic capabilities rarely are an issue in real practical applications. I don't think many will listen that loud.
Dynamics are objective. Micro and macro dynamics are actual terms used by audio engineers to describe objective aspects of sound they manipulate to make audible differences. These terms are also used by subjectivists to describe audible differences between headphones, sometimes incorrectly.

How is real dynamic capability of a headphone measured? I've never heard a headphone with anything close to unlistenable dynamics, but there are clear dynamic differences between headphones that can't be explained with frequencies.

What does that even mean? Most commercial music has a dynamic range around 10 dB or less! Jazz music around 20 dB. Some classical music recordings may have a dynamic range around 60 dB (and listening to such recorded music can be problematic at home but that's another topic).
I really doubt that any modern headphones have a problem with reproducing dynamics, and all this talk about dynamics, microdynamics in audiophile reviews is probably nonsense.
Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, it means the FR contains zero information about how the frequencies played change in volume during music playback. All sounds are just specific frequencies played at specific volumes played with specific timing. If two headphones with identical tonalities possess different characteristics, this is largely going to be because they handle dynamics in a way that's audibly different. This why you don't see anyone who's tried an S8 tell you to just EQ a B2 instead.
 

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium
Dynamics are objective. Micro and macro dynamics are actual terms used by audio engineers to describe objective aspects of sound they manipulate to make audible differences. These terms are also used by subjectivists to describe audible differences between headphones, sometimes incorrectly.

How is real dynamic capability of a headphone measured? I've never heard a headphone with anything close to unlistenable dynamics, but there are clear dynamic differences between headphones that can't be explained with frequencies.
Then these dynamics should be measurable.
If audio engineers manipulate these dynamics we should be able to put a number on it. (otherwise you cannot make a machine that can manipulate these properties)
Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, it means the FR contains zero information about how the frequencies played change in volume during music playback. All sounds are just specific frequencies played at specific volumes played with specific timing. If two headphones with identical tonalities possess different characteristics, this is largely going to be because they handle dynamics in a way that's audibly different. This why you don't see anyone who's tried an S8 tell you to just EQ a B2 instead.
You can measure compression and linearity. I do not think there is an issue with compression and doubt there is an issue with linearity that is audible in real world applications. Compression would occur at high SPL that you most likely would not use to evaluate sound quality or are comfortable for a listening session (maybe you would during extreme testing as Amir sometimes does). Linearity issues pop up during distortion measurements.
 

Chyżwar

Active Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
152
Likes
177
Dynamics are objective. Micro and macro dynamics are actual terms used by audio engineers

In the studio - macro dynamics is the dynamics of diffrent parts of the mix (for example you have a vocal, drums and guitar part, then you have a guitar solo and you compare the dynamics of those parts), and micro dynamics is simply the dynamics (of a specific fragment of a song).

I think these terms are useless when we talk about headphones!

And in audiophile reviews, micro and macro dynamics mean... who knows... I think it's just gibberish.

there are clear dynamic differences between headphones that can't be explained with frequencies.

Are you saying that you listen to music (which usually has a dynamics of less than 20 dB) and you hear differences in the dynamics of the headphones? This is a scientific forum, so I want to see some evidence! :)

Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, it means the FR contains zero information about how the frequencies played change in volume during music playback. All sounds are just specific frequencies played at specific volumes played with specific timing. If two headphones with identical tonalities possess different characteristics, this is largely going to be because they handle dynamics in a way that's audibly different. This why you don't see anyone who's tried an S8 tell you to just EQ a B2 instead.

Ok, I give up. I have no idea what you're talking about :) But I'd like to see some evidence of this different handling, the audibility of it, and other things you write about.
 

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
Then these dynamics should be measurable.
If audio engineers manipulate these dynamics we should be able to put a number on it. (otherwise you cannot make a machine that can manipulate these properties)

You can measure compression and linearity. I do not think there is an issue with compression and doubt there is an issue with linearity that is audible in real world applications. Compression would occur at high SPL that you most likely would not use to evaluate sound quality or are comfortable for a listening session (maybe you would during extreme testing as Amir sometimes does). Linearity issues pop up during distortion measurements.
Ok, I give up. I have no idea what you're talking about :) But I'd like to see some evidence of this different handling, the audibility of it, and other things you write about.

These dynamics are measurable. If you were to record the outputs of two different IEMs with identical tonality playing the same piece of music at the same volume, you'd be able to see that the resulting waveforms look different. The hard part is quantifying and qualifying these measurements in a useful way.

Do compression measurements tell you how compressed a headphone will sound compared to another? Or do they just tell you how compressed a headphone will sound at different volume levels relative to itself? Because those are very different measurements. I agree linearity almost never causes any audible issues.
 

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium
Do compression measurements tell you how compressed a headphone will sound compared to another?
If you measure both you can compare them.
These dynamics are measurable. If you were to record the outputs of two different IEMs with identical tonality playing the same piece of music at the same volume, you'd be able to see that the resulting waveforms look different.
Can you show us such measurements?
 

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
If you measure both you can compare them.

Can you show us such measurements?
Dynamics = variations in volume over a period of time.

Yes, if they are measurable they are comparable. But what I'm asking is if these comparisons are relevant to what we're discussing. If these compression measurements only tell you how consistent compression is at different volumes for a given headphone, then they're not useful for directly comparing the compression levels of different headphones.

I don't have any measurements, I honestly don't know where I'd find them. I doubt any reviewers measure and compare song waveforms for different headphones to determine sound quality. Even if you're an audio engineer, you're probably not going to be able to make meaningful conclusions about musicality by staring at two slightly different sets of squiggly lines.

My claims are very basic and easy to disprove if wrong. Any piece of audio can be reproduced by playing the right frequencies being played at the right loudness levels at the right time. If two audio sources with identical tonality sound different, it can only be because dynamics are being handled differently. Not necessarily better, worse, or more accurately. Just differently.
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,700
If two audio sources with identical tonality sound different
Then they don't have identical tonality... (EDIT- at your eardrum. They might still be identical on a measurement rig or someone elses ears)

 
Last edited:

Chyżwar

Active Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
152
Likes
177
Is there a better term for what I'm trying to discuss? I'd appreciate if you'd let me know what it is.

I have no idea what you're trying to discuss, but it certainly won't help to come up with your own definitions for words that mean something else.

The dynamics in audio is the difference between the softest and loudest sound, measured in decibels.
 

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium
I don't have any measurements, I honestly don't know where I'd find them. I doubt any reviewers measure and compare song waveforms for different headphones to determine sound quality.
Then why do you say this?

If you were to record the outputs of two different IEMs with identical tonality playing the same piece of music at the same volume, you'd be able to see that the resulting waveforms look different.
If no-one ever did these measurements, how do you know we would see differences?
Wishful thinking.
 

Geathchi

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
17
Likes
2
I have no idea what you're trying to discuss, but it certainly won't help to come up with your own definitions for words that mean something else.

The dynamics in audio is the difference between the softest and loudest sound, measured in decibels.
That's dynamic range, which is something more specific. Again, I'm talking more about how well dynamic range and variation within are being expressed.

Then they don't have identical tonality...

Thanks for sharing, interesting stuff. So theoretically, if you could tune two headphones to exhibit the same FR from eardrum, then they would sound identical. I can buy that FR differences, even in sets with similar tonality, account for a lot more differences in sound quality than people might think.

Then why do you say this?


If no-one ever did these measurements, how do you know we would see differences?
Wishful thinking.
I was genuinely hoping people have measurements to prove me wrong.
 

RHO

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2020
Messages
1,182
Likes
1,087
Location
Belgium
I was genuinely hoping people have measurements to prove me wrong.
I can make many claims and insist that they are true... Until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary.
 
Top Bottom