The deal breaker for Amir appears to be the Onkyo amp performance. It is relatively poor and can go into a limited mode that the user won’t be aware of and can only be fixed with a reboot (When used with 4ohm or less speakers).
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Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I assume many people would be using the RZ50 as a pre-amp meaning this issue wont be an issue?
I wouldn't assume that, I think it's safer to assume most use AVRs with their internal amps (that's the lower-end configuration after all, and lower-end systems are most likely more common). But as far as I understand if you don't use the internal amps then yes, it won't be an issue.
Other than the protection mode, seems like the SNR is ~10db worse compared to the Denon receivers, which seems like a lot, but I have no idea how much that actually matters in practice and if that's an audible difference.
Sure, but still wondering if it's an issue, or if it has been resolved.
SINAD is worse than Denon indeed, but Onkyo appears to have HDMI 2.1 ports that work well. That's apparently still problematic on the Denons. Perhaps when Denon releases the X*800 range of AVRs later this year, it'll be fixed, but still problematic on their current X*700 range (e.g. X3700, X4700). And, well, the Onkyo has Dirac Live
For movies and such, I'm not too nitpicky about SINAD and the utmost fidelity anyway. For music I am, and I have a dedicated streamer with integrated DAC for that, with a SINAD in the 110db+ range. As well as a Purifi poweramp, also in the 110db+ SINAD range, arguably above the range where most human ears can't hear a difference anymore (though some say it's 120db+).
The problems as listed are more artifacts of testing methodology than an actual issue from what I understand, only a handful of other people have run into the issue during 'normal' stress tests. There are other issues that didn't come up such as needing to hard restart it sometimes and relay clicking but those are individual tolerance level problems.
There are no 48gbps chips in common usage both in signal generation and receiver. There are some 3rd gen chips which should be able to do it, but honestly aside from 10K and 8K/120 there is no reason to use the full 48. The biggest difference is going to be in the 2.1a and 2.1b revisions which should help with the handshake, VRR, etc
It's too soon to tell. The issue is that almost all 1st gen 2.1 receivers used the same chipset with the same problems. This is one of the first 2nd gen in the wild at a reasonable price but there are so few due to the general logistics + buisness logistics of the buyout and it's so recent it's hard to tell. If you're comparing against the 1st gen products it's clearly better since it actually works, time will tell for 2nd gen and it may still be competitive with the 3rd gen but it will be value-added at that point rather than just HDMI capabilities.
Personally, I found it to be too buggy for my taste and the built-in amps inadequate so I sold it. With software updates and the power-amp I have now, maybe things would be different. Multi-channel Dirac is a pain to implement on a separates basis and while you can finesse the TOTL Audyssey XT32 or whatever to match the results it does take more work. YPAO is significantly worse in the older iterations and still lags behind in the new one when compared to Dirac. Also this receiver should be getting Dirac Unison update which sounds promising.
If you've gotta have 2.1 in the next 6 months and have power amps on hand I don't think there is anything comparable in the price range. If you can wait, I would wait and see what the RZ70/upcoming Pre-Pro offer or see if Anthem will drop the price on their 70 refresh. Also by that time there will be others on the market.
Tanquen
Member
I do use the HDMI 2.1 ports on my TV for PC games at 4k, 120Hz, 10-bit color, 4:4:4 chroma with HDR.
I thought 2.1a was just Source-Based Tone Mapping (SBTM) that could be added on a 2.0 port. Not really a bandwidth thing?
Not seen 2.1b info yet.
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Then you're fine because 4k@120hz 10bit,4:4:4 is within the 40gbps.
You're right that we probably won't see increased raw bandwidth, but we will see broader support of the supporting technologies that make it more functional, and we'll probably continue to see advances in the compression that make the effective bandwidth much higher, a like the PS5
Tanquen
Member
It says 40.1 so just 40 won't cut itThen you're fine because 4k@120hz 10bit,4:4:4 is within the 40gbps.
You're right that we probably won't see increased raw bandwidth, but we will see broader support of the supporting technologies that make it more functional, and we'll probably continue to see advances in the compression that make the effective bandwidth much higher, a like the PS5
but I like to turn on 12-bit color just because and then I need 48Gbps+. With 40 or 48, I'd want it on all ports. I'd rather they did 48.It's not like I'd want to see data from all ports at once like a switch. Why do the cheap out and give you one 2.1 40/48GBPS input? Something to sell you next year I guess.
Why just the PS5, can't they all use DSC? I've still not seen anything concrete on the DSC thing. It's lossy but you can't tell, hmm...
If you trawl through the many owners posting about the RZ50 / LX505 / DRX 5.4 siblings - this issue simply does not come up.
In real life with real speakers - the 4ohm speakers with the amp going into protection mode, is as rare as the proverbial unicorn.
Having said that... I have the less powerful Integra DRX3.4 (100W - equivalent to the Onkyo NR7100, but with pre-outs), and I have speakers where the woofer drops to 3 ohm and the tweeter down to 1.6ohm.
The 3.4 did not sound great with my speakers.... but it never went into protection. - I plugged my external amps in, to run L/C/R - and the system promptly sounded as it should (great!).
If you have speakers that are difficult to drive (low impedance) - then the internal amps on the AVR's (most AVR's not just the Onkyo family) - are to be treated with suspicion.... you will most likely need external amps suited to the speakers.
My surrounds are being run perfectly well by the internal amps by the way...
So - yes an excellent prepro - and yes it has constraints in the amplifier area.
Keep in mind these are all the midrange AVR's - the flagship AVR's are expected to be released late this year or early 2023, and going by previous generation models, will have more power, and a far better ability to handle difficult loads. (my previous generation Onkyo flagship AVR's handled my speakers fine....without external amps)
What kinds of bugs did you experience?
I don't need a new receiver right now, but my PS5 + Sony A80J + Yamaha A2070 AVR don't work well together, I have lipsync issues. There is a HDFury device of $500+ that can help fix this, permanently, but at that cost I might as well spend more and just buy a new AVR. Or to put it differently, I absolutely don't think such a HDFury device is worth $500+. At most $200.
The best way to resolve it is to just route everything through a HDMI 2.1 AVR. Maybe I'll see what Denon comes out with later this year when they release the X3800/X4800.
I run almost exclusively from my HTPC, including streaming, and gaming... I have had no issues.
If you have the luxury of time ( and the budget stretches up to the next category) - I would wait for the RZ70/LX704 as I am expecting that in addition to the same base support the RZ50 provides, they will add more robust class D amplification, and (this is only hearsay) - a completely new generation of Dirac room EQ... this last one could be a game changer.
There are also rumours about that Denon will jump ship and move to Dirac....
Ok, good to know. I'm otherwise not in the market for a flagship AVR, as those come with... a flagship price
And besides, I do run my L/R full-size fronts (Revel F206) through a Purifi poweramp, so I'm not concerned by power in an AVR. I just want it to be reliable, measure reasonably well, and have all the features I need. Sounds like this Onkyo might fit the bill, but since it's sold out everywhere anyway, I can wait a few months to see what else pops up.Oh, I'd love it if Denon went to Dirac
Though I bet you anything they'll only implement it on the X6-00 and X8-00 range of AVRs. Because: product segmentation, charge more money for more features, etc. bla bla bla.I'd overall prefer my next AVR to be a Denon, as they seem to be engineered well and are reasonably reliable.
I Initially ran my 3.4 with the L/R externally powere and the center powered by the 3.4 - it sounded great...Ok, good to know. I'm otherwise not in the market for a flagship AVR, as those come with... a flagship price
As I have an amp for the C as well, I ended up deciding to run it L/C/R on identical amps, "just to be sure".
I have not noted any substantive difference in sound quality. - So running all 3 L/C/R was too much for its power supply (along with surrounds) - but just handling the C was ok.
For more info than you can read in a day or two check out the AVS Forum thread on the RZ50.SINAD is worse than Denon indeed, but Onkyo appears to have HDMI 2.1 ports that work well. That's apparently still problematic on the Denons. Perhaps when Denon releases the X*800 range of AVRs later this year, it'll be fixed, but still problematic on their current X*700 range (e.g. X3700, X4700). And, well, the Onkyo has Dirac Live
For movies and such, I'm not too nitpicky about SINAD and the utmost fidelity anyway. For music I am, and I have a dedicated streamer with integrated DAC for that, with a SINAD in the 110db+ range. As well as a Purifi poweramp, also in the 110db+ SINAD range, arguably above the range where most human ears can't hear a difference anymore (though some say it's 120db+).
Somewhere, I think in one of the long format interviews that came out from Onkyo before it was released, they had their HDMI specalist go into further detail on why that 40.1 is actually within the 40 spec. Also the RZ50 has (2) ports capable of 40 out and can receive either (3) or (5) IIRC 40 coming in.It says 40.1 so just 40 won't cut it
Since there are no 12 bit panels it's a bit of a waste but future proofing is nice.
I was referring more to the PS5 having less raw computational power than the latest XBox but still remaining competitive due to their unique memory layout which lets them avoid doing double work. DSC is very much analogous since trying to push all of the video data through in a non-compressed format is a waste given the way humans perceive video.
It would become unreachable via Dirac Live, or unresponsive at times in general and did not play nice with a Lenovo docking station. Also the websetup had something not working correctly which involved having to do a full reset twice. Oh, and sometimes the volume would just turn itself all the way down and it wasn't the remote doing it so...idk.
Most of this stuff probably is/will be fixed, but I decided the capital expenditure would be better reallocated to other equipment since I have a fairly small room for a full atmos setup. If I really needed the capabilities it has, I would have kept it.
Eh, on one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, after having waded through the HDMI specs and some of the licensing requirements I can see why they are what they are.
Those are odd bugs. I'm not super rushed to buy a new AVR, so maybe I'll wait a couple months to see what else is announced, particularly on the Denon side, and if that's worth waiting for.
Ok fair enough. I'll rephrase it to: I have zero willingness to spend $500+ on such a device
DrStranger
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Anyone from US/Europe that knows a site that has the RZ50 and can ship to European countries?
