Xbox 360 and CDs

[HeadphoneFan]

Hello! I hope everyone is doing well. Please let me know if I should modify the title or move the thread to a different area at any time.

I want to start listening to some CDs with my hifi audio setup and was initially thinking I'd use my Xbox 360 to play CDs. Then, I stumbled across this article:

http://www.blog.gartonhill.com/xbox-360-is-not-an-audiophile-music-source/

The author claims the Xbox 360 degrades CD quality because it converts 16 bit 44.1 khz audio to what seems to be the only type of audio it can decode - 16 bit 48 khz. Apparently, bypassing the Xbox 360s built-in DAC will not solve this issue (it is simply digital to digital conversion after all). It seems rather strange that the Xbox 360 would do this. I was wondering, does anyone know why Microsoft would do this? What's the benefit? Also, to what extent will this impact sound quality?I was contemplating buying an external CD drive for my PC, would that be a good solution? Would I even be able to skip/pause CD tracks on PC with an external CD drive?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[watchnerd]

Hello! I hope everyone is doing well. Please let me know if I should modify the title or move the thread to a different area at any time.

I want to start listening to some CDs with my hifi audio setup and was initially thinking I'd use my Xbox 360 to play CDs. Then, I stumbled across this article:

http://www.blog.gartonhill.com/xbox-360-is-not-an-audiophile-music-source/

The author claims the Xbox 360 degrades CD quality because it converts 16 bit 44.1 khz audio to what seems to be the only type of audio it can decode - 16 bit 48 khz. Apparently, bypassing the Xbox 360s built-in DAC will not solve this issue (it is simply digital to digital conversion after all). It seems rather strange that the Xbox 360 would do this. I was wondering, does anyone know why Microsoft would do this? What's the benefit? Also, to what extent will this impact sound quality?I was contemplating buying an external CD drive for my PC, would that be a good solution? Would I even be able to skip/pause CD tracks on PC with an external CD drive?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Up-conversion isn't necessarily a degradation, unless it's done poorly.

In fact, a lot of mid-tier and higher DACs have settings to upconvert 16bit/44khz audio to higher sample rates.

BTW, AppleTV also has a default rate of 48khz.

48khz is the normal AV rate.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Thanks for the help! The author does that the Xbox 360 does a poor job of the up-conversion, apparently "breaking" the signal during the resampling process. I don't even know how it's possible to break a digital signal, though in fact I don't know much at all about these things. Wouldn't such breaking lead to an audibly distorted analog signal?

I suspect the issue is with the Xbox 360's built-in DAC and Amp, especially since most games sounded pretty dull when I just plugged my headphones into the Xbox 360. Judging by the article, I don't think the person who posted it ever used an external DAC/amp combo with the 360. I'm thinking maybe microsoft just tuned its DAC to under-emphasize certain frequencies (to mask distortion and/or compression artifacts and/or prevent hearing loss). Not sure what the case is, but I'll be a little more hesitant to purchase a CD drive for PC given what you've said. I just like the idea of listening to CDs, DVDs and games through my Xbox if I can, especially since constantly unplugging my D30 for use with other devices sounds rather inconvenient. However, I care a great deal about audio quality.

Any other thoughts on this?

 

[HeadphoneFan]

No but plan to do it soon. I have a bunch of CDs in my vehicle that I haven't played in a while. Will definitely comment on this again once I have. I didn't even realize the Xbox could play CDs until fairly recently lol. I don't currently have the D30 to compare its built-in DAC with though, I just ordered it yesterday and it should be here on Monday. My Xtrempro M1 (lists THD+N and SNR specs on amazon that are very similar to those of the Fiio A3, with same preamp/poweramp) does seem to make a pretty substantial difference with video games, though I'm sure that's partly because it allows me to play games at the volume I want. I'll probably upgrade to one of Topping's portable offerings fairly soon, the NX5 is on a crazy deal here in Canada atm, like $65 as opposed to ~ $180 regular price. Not in a financial position to buy one now, though.

As I say I suspect it's mainly rolled-off treble and/or bass due to the built-in DAC, but it will be very interesting to hear. Anyone else want to plug in a CD and share perceptions?

 

[RayDunzl]

No but plan to do it soon.

Sorry, deleted my post to which you replied which basically said "Have you tried playing a CD in it?" because I'm out of my element commenting on game consoles.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Not sure your lack of experience with game consoles really affects the relevance of such a question but ok

 

[RayDunzl]

I dunno.

I inherited an XBox something and maybe a Nintendo player too about 8 years ago.

I hooked one of them up and played a few minutes of some game and put it all in the closet where it remains.

Somebody that knows will provide a more useful answer than me.

---

All my music/sound from whatever digital source and rate gets resampled to 48kHz in the DSP chain and then to 211kHz in my DAC.

I don't worry about it.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

I dunno.

I inherited an XBox something and maybe a Nintendo player too about 8 years ago.

I hooked one of them up and played a few minutes of some game and put it all in the closet where it remains.

Somebody that knows will provide a more useful answer than me.

---

All my music/sound from whatever digital source and rate gets resampled to 48kHz in the DSP chain and then to 211kHz in my DAC.

I don't worry about it.

I suspected most people here would have little experience with video games (though I did see one member with a pic of some bobblehead with an N7 helmet), figured it wouldn't make much of a difference. The author claims the Xbox 360 somehow breaks the digital signal chain and causes certain pieces of information to be lost, is that even possible? Digital up-conversion sounds like it would be more difficult to screw up than do correctly, but there's no shortage of crappy hardware in this world.

Yeah hopefully it's not too much of an issue. I am planning to get a CD featuring London Philiharmonic's take on a number of video game themes, so that should be useful for comparison with some of the games I have. I can't help but think that at least some video game audio would be pretty compressed, such that audio quality degradation due to up-conversion should be evident in video games as well, but I can't seem to notice anything though I do listen pretty carefully/critically to music in games.

 

[watchnerd]

Thanks for the help! The author does that the Xbox 360 does a poor job of the up-conversion, apparently "breaking" the signal during the resampling process. I don't even know how it's possible to break a digital signal, though in fact I don't know much at all about these things. Wouldn't such breaking lead to an audibly distorted analog signal?

I suspect the issue is with the Xbox 360's built-in DAC and Amp, especially since most games sounded pretty dull when I just plugged my headphones into the Xbox 360. Judging by the article, I don't think the person who posted it ever used an external DAC/amp combo with the 360. I'm thinking maybe microsoft just tuned its DAC to under-emphasize certain frequencies (to mask distortion and/or compression artifacts and/or prevent hearing loss). Not sure what the case is, but I'll be a little more hesitant to purchase a CD drive for PC given what you've said. I just like the idea of listening to CDs, DVDs and games through my Xbox if I can, especially since constantly unplugging my D30 for use with other devices sounds rather inconvenient. However, I care a great deal about audio quality.

Any other thoughts on this?

Believe it or not, it would be harder to do it wrong than do it it right.

There are many known open source libraries, SOX probably being the best known, that create audibly transparent up-samples.

To do it right is both easy and free. To do it wrong would be more work.

Personally, I would wonder if the post author has others validating his opinion with further evidence before getting too worked up about it...

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Haha I believe you that's the thing. There were I think 4 comments with I believe too simply accepting the author's conclusions and asking for viable solutions (too lazy to check). At least one of the 4 people who commented complained of poor sound quality with CDs as well (again I doubt the person had a decent external DAC/amp combo). Mostly complained about audio sounding rolled-off at certain frequencies, which fits with what I've perceived in games. I can definitely understand why a company would make a DAC that under-emphasized sub-bass or treble (to help prevent hearing loss). Games can get pretty loud (and gamers seem to like playing them loud), with plenty of ear-piercing screeching sounds and explosions.

In all of this I've refrained from mentioning the complete lack of any scientific evidence in the linked article for the author's conclusions. The most the author can manage is that resampling seems to be the issue, though he appears to place a great deal of confidence in his idea of what seems to be. Still, he may be right. But I suspected even before your comment that digital up-conversion would be tough to do wrong. It sounds less difficult than digital-audio conversion, which itself shouldn't be too difficult given how far science and tech has progressed.

Anyone else have ideas on this? Has anyone used the Xbox 360 as a CD player?

 

[sonci]

I don't have the xbox, but I don't see why it shouldn't sound good, any cheap dvd player can, even though not as good as a standalone cd player. Just get a vintage good working order from ebay, like Sony , Rotel, or Marantz, and you'll have a nice machine, better than the Topping D30 you bought, (I had it) and way better than the Xbox.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Ok thanks. Roughly what price range did you have in mind when you said "standalone CD player?" I don't understand why a CD player would sound better than a Dvd player + DAC/Amp combo with inaudible distortion/noise (I am assuming the noise/distortion produced by the D30 is too quiet to be audible). I could just grab an external CD drive as mentioned and run the audio through my PC to sidestep any craziness the Xbox 360 would do to digital audio. It seems one should simply aim for the products best able to accurately translate zeros and ones into analog audio and amplify the analog signal without audible distortion or noise. However, I am not very knowledgeable about audio so I could very well be missing something here.

Any thoughts?

 

[sonci]

It's hard to say the price range, some old players are reliable but the laser may be at the end of life. I'd say don't go above 100$,
I have a dozen of cd players, I prefer every single one to the topping, better instrumental separation, soundstage, detail, call it distortion..
The problem is that a lot of members here have never listened to a good cd player, those who have use high end dacs,
I also find it strange that between the D30 and high end dacs there are no important measurable differences, but when you listen to them, there is a pretty night and day difference..

 

[JJB70]

You can find plenty of nice CD players s/h at bargain prices. Some of the classic signature models hold their value reasonably but you can find plenty of very solid mid-range and even high end machines from Sony, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Rotel etc at very good prices. If you want a relatively low cost CD player that's probably a better option than an old game console.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Well if I'm only being asked to spend around $100 then that's encouraging. I will more than likely upgrade amps, upgrade headphones, and buy that London Philharmonic CD before getting a CD player, but there may be some benefit to eventually getting a CD player. I just don't understand how it would provide any sort of benefit. There probably isn't going to be any significant difference between a game console, CD player, or DVD player in terms of the hardware's ability to output digital audio accurately. If the Xbox 360 cannot perform this incredibly simple task I could surely just purchase an external CD drive for PC for $10. And if the D30's distortion and noise is at a low enough level to be perceptually/audibly insignificant, I don't understand the point in getting a DAC or CD player that measures better. If you're hearing a difference between the D30 and a DAC/CD, I'm thinking that either (a) it's placebo or (b) the D30's noise/distortion is in fact perceptually/audibly significant. It could also be the case that the higher-end DACs are not producing audio as accurately and that the inaccuracies are subjectively pleasant, but this seems unlikely. Earlier I was thinking maybe a good $100 CD player would have a better DAC than the D30 due to having to play only 16 bit/44.1k audio, but given that DAC chips are built to accommodate multiple audio formats it doesn't seem that a CD player's ability to specialize would provide any real benefit.

Maybe I'm missing something? Thanks for the help.

 

[sonci]

Hey, I just shared my experience,.
Unfortunately it seems a lot of people here sound like brainwashed. If you are pretty sure that everything sound the same, stop asking people opinions, about audio gear.

Unfortunately a 100$ dac don't sound like 1000$, and a cd player with an ancient dac sounds a lot better than an entry level dac.
As I said get a used cd player, than compare, hopefuly you have not presbycusis, and then get back here..

 

[HeadphoneFan]

And I said I appreciated you helping (via sharing your experience and providing suggestions). I did say that the D30's noise might be perceptually/audibly significant, implying that (to your point) higher-end DACs or potentially CD players might provide DACs that sounded better. I also said I might have been missing something, because the probability that I will be able to adequately consider all the possibilities relevant to a situation without input from other members is roughly zero. I didn't give a lot of weight to the possibility of different types of hardware being better able to output digital audio accurately (that an external DAC or CD player DAC will then decode), but that is a possibility as well. Given that it's possible a CD player will sound better, it probably is worth a try. It's just not super high on my priority list at the moment. Doesn't mean I'll never do it. Doesn't mean I dislike you for sharing your experience, I appreciate you helping.

 

[JJB70]

There is a difference between what is measurable and what is audible. For what it's worth the great majority of DACs are audibly transparent to my ears. That's not to say they all measure the same, as clearly they don't measure the same but as part of an audio chain I think the differences are either inaudible or small enough to be inconsequential. That is not to say they're all built the same, offer the same durability, finish, user interface, functionality etc and depending on what you want there are good differences other than SQ for favouring some DACs over others.

The reason I'd recommend a S/H CD player isn't so much for the SQ but rather the user experience. The build quality of some of those old CD players was excellent, with a lovely tactile feel. Ease of use, games consoles are designed to be controlled via an external screen UI, which makes sense for a games console but for audio equipment having buttons and a screen on the CD player is a lot more appropriate. Many have a controllable headphone output and line outs etc.

 

[HeadphoneFan]

Something I hadn't considered, perhaps there is something to be said for user-friendliness, and for durability. My Xbox 360 may very well die soon anyway though I hope not. I've had it for several years now. Not sure what you mean by a controllable headphone output.

 

[JJB70]

Something I hadn't considered, perhaps there is something to be said for user-friendliness, and for durability. My Xbox 360 may very well die soon anyway though I hope not. I've had it for several years now. Not sure what you mean by a controllable headphone output.

Unless you get a really basic entry level model it's probable that there will be a headphone jack on the front fascia, with its own volume control. Now many will tell you these headphone outputs are awful and you must have a headphone amplifier, but in my experience most of them work perfectly well.