Time aligned speakers - do they make sense?

[dc655321]

I know at least one speaker that is bester!

Have you considered that the purchase decision could mainly be due to the fact that there really is "nothing special" about Vandie-2s?

To wit - ick.
In even more unflattering detail…

 

[HammerSandwich]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Vandersteen Model 2 has sold more pairs than any other audiophile speaker in history.

TAS Legacy: Vandersteen Audio Model 2 Loudspeaker - The Absolute Sound

TAS Legacy: Vandersteen Audio Model 2 Loudspeaker -

www.theabsolutesound.com

People wouldn't still be buying a 40 year old design if there was nothing special about it.

Rephrased, this could argue that McDonalds obviously makes delicious burgers.

(No claims about V's speakers; I haven't even seen a pair in 30 years. Just saying that "popularity implies product quality" is flawed reasoning.)

 

[pseudoid]

To wit - ick.
In even more unflattering detail…

Vandersteen buyers rightfully felt that the price they were paying went to the performance rather than the looks. Cabinetry can be a big cost driver for any floor-standing speakers.
So, what alternatives are there in the market for time-aligned speakers, if some gravitate towards them?

 

[Dougey_Jones]

To wit - ick.
In even more unflattering detail…

Not that it matters at this point, because this thread turned into a total mess, but Erin was testing original 2C’s, one of the first iterations, without the stands and with very likely dry rotted foam surrounds. I know he said they weren’t, but he didn’t remove the socks to check, and didn’t say that they’d been refoamed. The later iterations all improved on the original. 2CI, then 2CE and finally 2CE Signature.

Needless to say, I enjoy mine very much, they sound great when set up properly, and I’ve had plenty of other good speakers to compare to.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Rephrased, this could argue that McDonalds obviously makes delicious burgers.

McDonald’s absolutely DOES make delicious burgers. It helps if you’ve had too much to drink, but that’s neither here nor there.

 

[dc655321]

Not that it matters at this point, because this thread turned into a total mess, but Erin was testing original 2C’s, one of the first iterations, without the stands and with very likely dry rotted foam surrounds. I know he said they weren’t, but he didn’t remove the socks to check, and didn’t say that they’d been refoamed. The later iterations all improved on the original. 2CI, then 2CE and finally 2CE Signature.

Needless to say, I enjoy mine very much, they sound great when set up properly, and I’ve had plenty of other good speakers to compare to.

I understand Erin measured a previous version. I was trying to point out that a sensible engineering story does not necessarily translate to a well engineered result.

It’s the former that you appear to have bought into. Without measurements, how would you know?

You enjoy yours? Great!
But have no illusion they’re other than middling.

 

[dualazmak]

My general impression and strategy/policy...

All of the theoretical discussions and upstream measurements in digital and analog domains should be fully objectively measured proved validated (with no "black-box type" analysis included) in our individual room air sound in our own audio environments at our listening position, and the (positive or negative) results in sound quality should be carefully listened subjectively.

Otherwise....

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I understand Erin measured a previous version. I was trying to point out that a sensible engineering story does not necessarily translate to a well engineered result.

It’s the former that you appear to have bought into. Without measurements, how would you know?

You enjoy yours? Great!
But have no illusion they’re other than middling.

Post your setup. By your rationale everyone should trade in whatever they currently have for a pair of Elac DBR-62’s, a decent sub and a MiniDSP SHD. But they don’t, and won’t.

This thread has turned into the ultimate showcase for the scientific maximalist position that sometimes crops up on ASR.

 

[dc655321]

By your rationale everyone should trade in whatever they currently have for a pair of Elac DBR-62’s, a decent sub and a MiniDSP SHD. But they don’t, and won’t.

That’s your own conclusion to jump to. Enjoy you speakers, your delusions, and your inferiority complex.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

That’s your own conclusion to jump to. Enjoy you speakers, your delusions, and your inferiority complex.

Another poster with a theoretical setup only?

 

[Digital_Thor]

McDonald’s absolutely DOES make delicious burgers. It helps if you’ve had too much to drink, but that’s neither here nor there.

McDonalds makes some of the worst garbage that can be scrapped off the floor - unless you're extremely hung over or drunk like hell - in which case you are in no state to judge anything anyway But they have a great business model, and we have tons of ridiculously stupid people on this earth, so cash in the money - until the hospital bills has to be paid... or live in a country with free health care - and just live a ****** fat life, with early cases of heart diseases and worn down joint, because of constant overload. Super fun - do it do it - weee
Slow death of fast food - George Carlin

Half deaf people with old worn ears - might also find so-called "bright" speaker great. What are we getting at here?

What actually mattes is: If you want a speaker with a pretty flat and smooth FR - on almost all axis', then time aligning the drivers, makes great sense, since it can provide an easier starting point for the filter function to end up, like the ones we mostly prefer.
If you prefer something else. Give it a go, and see how long you like that speaker. All is free and up for games, when we chose a given speaker design, with its inherent compromises.

 

[pseudoid]

McDonalds makes some of the worst garbage that can be scrapped off the floor

Please stop encouraging children to continue their MickeyD's habits.
2-year-old orders 31 cheeseburgers on DoorDash after taking mom’s phone
Texas mom Kelsey Burkhalter Golden's toddler sneakily took her phone and ordered 31 cheeseburgers from McDonald’s.
The total bill for the extra lunchtime sandwiches was $91.70 and included a $16 tip for the DoorDash driver who had to make the trek to her house.

From <https://nypost.com/2022/05/18/2-yea...eburgers-on-doordash-after-taking-moms-phone/>

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Please stop encouraging children to continue their MickeyD's habits.
2-year-old orders 31 cheeseburgers on DoorDash after taking mom’s phone
Texas mom Kelsey Burkhalter Golden's toddler sneakily took her phone and ordered 31 cheeseburgers from McDonald’s.
The total bill for the extra lunchtime sandwiches was $91.70 and included a $16 tip for the DoorDash driver who had to make the trek to her house.

From <https://nypost.com/2022/05/18/2-yea...eburgers-on-doordash-after-taking-moms-phone/>
View attachment 207755

I think you’re taking this a little far man. I have a three year old myself, he’s had McDonald’s chicken nuggets 2-3 times in his life on road trips. It’s possible to enjoy something without becoming addicted to it.

It’s called balance..

 

[Digital_Thor]

Please stop encouraging children to continue their MickeyD's habits.
2-year-old orders 31 cheeseburgers on DoorDash after taking mom’s phone
Texas mom Kelsey Burkhalter Golden's toddler sneakily took her phone and ordered 31 cheeseburgers from McDonald’s.

Sorry... but that happens all the time - sadly. They copy-cat their parents, and the parents forget that they have poor habits - but mostly realized it, when their kids adopt them, and play it out at full power in front of them - like a mirror with all the worst you could imagine
I once tried to help a single mom with her kid's phone, that bought 1000$ worth of some princess power ups in a game on her Iphone. Sadly she simply followed Apples "advice", pushing towards doing everything that it says on the screen - including putting in your credit card number. They settle a bit... but in the end she had to pay some of it.

The development of advertisement, runs extremely fast.... and many people seem to forget. Just look at speaker cables and the ridiculous claims done there

I merely reacted to the term "delicious" and McDonalds - in the same sentence - like really?? Is that even close to the best food you've ever had??
Since the few times I tried to eat or drink anything from that place - I regretted it until I simply tried to deny its existence all together. But they know..... one of my friends has a Tesla with unlimited quick charge, but the quick charge places are only in the middle of nowhere.... with either McD, Burger King or Sunset Boulevard around the corner. It's a business model, and it works.

We had a technician from Greece who had just been to the US. He told me that he needed a restaurant to eat dinner, and they pointed towards a McD. But it was at some industrial area, with nothing else around. When he then came here to Denmark and I was responsible to point him to some place for dinner, after he finished his job. He clearly stated that he hoped that our definition of a restaurant, was not a fast food place. I calmed him down and found somewhere with food, that actually had a minimum of nutritional value on its menu, and he was happy.

Some fast food can be ok. But please don't eat that much of it, that it becomes a reference for such a nice word as delicious.

I agree with the word balance... that's much better put.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I’ve traveled the world and eaten in numerous Michelin rated and 5-Star/5-Diamond restaurants. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy a dirty burger here and there ‍

 

[puppet]

Sorry... but that happens all the time - sadly. They copy-cat their parents, and the parents forget that they have poor habits - but mostly realized it, when their kids adopt them, and play it out at full power in front of them - like a mirror with all the worst you could imagine
I once tried to help a single mom with her kid's phone, that bought 1000$ worth of some princess power ups in a game on her Iphone. Sadly she simply followed Apples "advice", pushing towards doing everything that it says on the screen - including putting in your credit card number. They settle a bit... but in the end she had to pay some of it.

The development of advertisement, runs extremely fast.... and many people seem to forget. Just look at speaker cables and the ridiculous claims done there

I merely reacted to the term "delicious" and McDonalds - in the same sentence - like really?? Is that even close to the best food you've ever had??
Since the few times I tried to eat or drink anything from that place - I regretted it until I simply tried to deny its existence all together. But they know..... one of my friends has a Tesla with unlimited quick charge, but the quick charge places are only in the middle of nowhere.... with either McD, Burger King or Sunset Boulevard around the corner. It's a business model, and it works.

We had a technician from Greece who had just been to the US. He told me that he needed a restaurant to eat dinner, and they pointed towards a McD. But it was at some industrial area, with nothing else around. When he then came here to Denmark and I was responsible to point him to some place for dinner, after he finished his job. He clearly stated that he hoped that our definition of a restaurant, was not a fast food place. I calmed him down and found somewhere with food, that actually had a minimum of nutritional value on its menu, and he was happy.

Some fast food can be ok. But please don't eat that much of it, that it becomes a reference for such a nice word as delicious.

I agree with the word balance... that's much better put.

Too bad your tech friend hung out with the wrong crowd ... here in the states you can literally enjoy any type of food from around the world at a local neighborhood restaurant in just about any city.

 

[pseudoid]

Sorry Denmark,
Your European perspective of America's culinary offerings sound to be jaundiced.
FULL STOP!

 

[Duke]

Not to mention his [Geddes'] sub design uses only a first order low pass...

My understanding is that Earl's subs are bandpass subs, so their top end has a built-in third order lowpass function before any additional filtering.

My experience with distributed multisub systems has been that it's a good idea to aggressively roll off the top end of any subs that are positioned well away from the main speakers (like alongside or behind the listening area), so they don't betray their locations by passing audible upper bass/lower midrange energy. I use a 4th order lowpass filter, and my understanding is that that's what Earl uses as well (3rd order acoustic lowpass + 1st order electrical lowpass).

 

[Digital_Thor]

Too bad your tech friend hung out with the wrong crowd ... here in the states you can literally enjoy any type of food from around the world at a local neighborhood restaurant in just about any city.

Yup... he was a Greek tech, who told me that he had to move from Greece to Germany to find a serious job. I don't even have to make this stuff up myself.... people bring it to me
I know that there is great food everywhere - if you look. Same here in Denmark, but we also have the type of food for a given crowd, closest to where that crowd hang out - relevant to what they want to pay. I can see a Michelin restaurant from my apartment... but I never went there.... but my boss did.
I fairly believe that he might just encountered the fact, that in a huge industrial area, at some maybe late hour... it can be difficult to get something to eat - I admit, that his story did not provide that level of information.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Sorry Denmark,
Your European perspective of America's culinary offerings sound to be jaundiced.
FULL STOP!

My mom moved to LA in the 60's and had my half-brother, which I love just like my "full" sister. And the stories are pretty straight up, fitting with what you see and hear in the media. I guess history is repeating and that most cultures have their things sticking pretty well, for quite some time, making up our identity, if you will. Look at us Danes.... we are still vikings, like Americans are cowboys. Guess tv and movies did their trick
Nothing is black and white, but funnily enough, my new colleague, who just moved in from New York, a few months ago.... brings up stories that fit so damn well... that it's almost scary. My other colleague, who worked in a restaurant in the US, confirm several stories too, while his dad gave Wall Street a go.... still trying... and that is a rough story all by itself.
Nothing is perfect.... we could easily turn the story upside down with someone moving from Denmark. But I believe it's like speakers.... there are compromises - but there are also clear trends. Some of my absolute favorite comedians, like George Carlin, Bill Burr, Christopher Titus and more, joked about all of this, for years.
If our tiny country can admit that we have our faults, then hopefully your huge country, can admit that there's maybe a bit of dust and mold in the corners

But I'm sorry for letting myself getting carried away - I will try and stay on the subject