Buying my 1st pro audio interconnect cable and soldering myself

[leeking2005]

1st of all, I had a bachelor degree in electronic engineering so I can understand most of the technicality term in sound and frequency domain. But as I'm just starting my beginner journey in audiophile path with cheap Presonus Eris 3.5 pair + Sub 8, I want to ask something about a very popular cable - Canare L-2t2s.

For disclaimer I actually didn't had any experience with ultra expensive audiophile cable nor many types of cable, but I definitely can hear a significant different not only in term of just general frequency response alteration, but also the transcient response and even some weird effect (which I'm not sure if it's normal).

My setup consist of:

1. Two 4 meters local brand 2 core 20/0.012 + 1 shielded 94/0.12 ( AWG 24 TC material ), 1/4 inch TRS balanced cable from subwoofer output to eris 3.5.
2. One 3 meters Right angle 3.5mm to dual RCA canare L-2t2s.

I really like the local brand cheap microphone cable cause of it's vintage sound/design signature that also had very wide frequency range, but I feel it lack a bit in transcient department hence tried to combine it with thicker canare L-2t2s AWG 23 30/0.08 for 7 meter in total run.

However, when combined those two cable it not only completely blew the relatively neutral frequency response (boosted bass and reduce high), but also introduce some pleasent but unexpected compresor's effect.

After carefully balanced back the frequency response, I kinda like the new combination of vintage signature sound + tight (high transcient) and medium to heavily compressed sound signature... But it seemed kinda fake and too much coloured for the purpose of a studio monitor

Just curious and wanted to ask what could caused the natural medium to heavy compression effect on those "high end" cable? Is it the shielding, length, strands count, material, oxidixation or someting else like capacitance? And I wonder if this common of most custom made high end interconnectcableor just my design or soldering flaws~

Note worthy but might not be important ( Debatable but something to share ).
1. I used cheap roxtone connector for all the cable cause I heard they all had brass core and doesn't matter much.
2. I generally like 6mm or thicker microphone cable cause they had good enough shielding, low enough capacitance and generally warm/neutral signature.
3. Just used normal solder and quite excessively cause I heard it also doesn't matter.
4. The most neutral sound of strands count versus frequency response are 20/0.012 (AWG 23.5) and 4 times the ground cable.
5. I think the easiest way to determine if an interconnect cable is well design or not (aka snake oil) is through a studio monitor, less varieble means easier to catch the differences. For me it definitely reveal the material, design, shielding, frequency responseand transcient ofIC cable well enough.
6. From engineer perspective, I think IC cable do drastically affect the sound and need good design and manufacturing. It's not all snake oil like those non-engineer claimed, except maybe the price. But then again,so do all the 5 figures hifi system...

 

[joeren]

1st of all, I had a bachelor degree in electronic engineering so I can understand most of the technicality term in sound and frequency domain. But as I'm just starting my beginner journey in audiophile path with cheap Presonus Eris 3.5 pair + Sub 8, I want to ask something about a very popular cable - Canare L-2t2s.

For disclaimer I actually didn't had any experience with ultra expensive audiophile cable nor many types of cable, but I definitely can hear a significant different not only in term of just general frequency response alteration, but also the transcient response and even some weird effect (which I'm not sure if it's normal).

My setup consist of:

1. Two 4 meters local brand 2 core 20/0.012 + 1 shielded 94/0.12 ( AWG 24 TC material ), 1/4 inch TRS balanced cable from subwoofer output to eris 3.5.
2. One 3 meters Right angle 3.5mm to dual RCA canare L-2t2s.

I really like the local brand cheap microphone cable cause of it's vintage sound/design signature that also had very wide frequency range, but I feel it lack a bit in transcient department hence tried to combine it with thicker canare L-2t2s AWG 23 30/0.08 for 7 meter in total run.

However, when combined those two cable it not only completely blew the relatively neutral frequency response (boosted bass and reduce high), but also introduce some pleasent but unexpected compresor's effect.

After carefully balanced back the frequency response, I kinda like the new combination of vintage signature sound + tight (high transcient) and medium to heavily compressed sound signature... But it seemed kinda fake and too much coloured for the purpose of a studio monitor

Just curious and wanted to ask what could caused the natural medium to heavy compression effect on those "high end" cable? Is it the shielding, length, strands count, material, oxidixation or someting else like capacitance? And I wonder if this common of most custom made high end interconnectcableor just my design or soldering flaws~

Note worthy but might not be important ( Debatable but something to share ).
1. I used cheap roxtone connector for all the cable cause I heard they all had brass core and doesn't matter much.
2. I generally like 6mm or thicker microphone cable cause they had good enough shielding, low enough capacitance and generally warm/neutral signature.
3. Just used normal solder and quite excessively cause I heard it also doesn't matter.
4. The most neutral sound of strands count versus frequency response are 20/0.012 (AWG 23.5) and 4 times the ground cable.
5. I think the easiest way to determine if an interconnect cable is well design or not (aka snake oil) is through a studio monitor, less varieble means easier to catch the differences. For me it definitely reveal the material, design, shielding, frequency responseand transcient ofIC cable well enough.
6. From engineer perspective, I think IC cable do drastically affect the sound and need good design and manufacturing. It's not all snake oil like those non-engineer claimed, except maybe the price. But then again,so do all the 5 figures hifi system...

You should be able to able to get an idea of the transfer function, of the cable, from data sheet on the Canare website. That cable doesn’t look like it should have any issues passing audio frequency signals. I can’t imagine how you can hear the drastic differences, you state, using a few meters of any cable. Also, there is no way that the cable can cause compression in the signal.

 

[jae]

Welcome to ASR! How are you measuring your findings?

 

[Katji]

[ Long story short | answer to question ]
- It is imagination, human hearing sense perception is covered by Neuropsychology, Psychology. Hence the need for unsighted A/B testing.

- This stuff about transients and compression and so on did not come from when you were studying Elec.Eng., it arose from reading audiophile pseudo-science on internet.

- If you use the forum search facility, you will find 100s of pages covering it, you can do 20-30 minutes reading, or 1 hour, or several days.
iow, there is a lot. Including extensive tests with measurements, and so on. Measurable electrical differences [between different speaker cables] which are never anywhere near being audible.
iow, It is very unlikely that you have randomly discovered something that many years of scientific research has not found.

 

[restorer-john]

Welcome to ASR! How are you measuring your findings?

View attachment 207528

Wow.

Your image manipulation skills are at a whole other level aren't they?

 

[Speedskater]

For reasonable length XLR balanced interconnect cables in reasonable residential environments, it's highly unlikely that there are audible differences between all well constructed Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) cables.
However harsh interference environments might be a different story.

 

[leeking2005]

You should be able to able to get an idea of the transfer function, of the cable, from data sheet on the Canare website. That cable doesn’t look like it should have any issues passing audio frequency signals. I can’t imagine how you can hear the drastic differences, you state, using a few meters of any cable. Also, there is no way that the cable can cause compression in the signal.

Not really, those japanese manufacurer really guarded their manufacturer secret with their life. They don't even put their strands count, shielding/ground strands count + AWG on their website.

Welcome to ASR! How are you measuring your findings?

View attachment 207528

Just listening using my cheap studio monitor, it's not a pair of 3-4 figures cable by any mean.

 

[leeking2005]

[ Long story short | answer to question ]
- It is imagination, human hearing sense perception is covered by Neuropsychology, Psychology. Hence the need for unsighted A/B testing.

- This stuff about transients and compression and so on did not come from when you were studying Elec.Eng., it arose from reading audiophile pseudo-science on internet.

- If you use the forum search facility, you will find 100s of pages covering it, you can do 20-30 minutes reading, or 1 hour, or several days.
iow, there is a lot. Including extensive tests with measurements, and so on. Measurable electrical differences [between different speaker cables] which are never anywhere near being audible.
iow, It is very unlikely that you have randomly discovered something that many years of scientific research has not found.

Not really, the vintage sound/"real music" sound of tin copper core actually are well documented if you google it a bit. It's by no mean an expensive cable due to the material price, but I had compared it to slightly expensive cable and it's definitely translate the harmony, room sound etc much better. The drawback is probably much lower transient response at higher frequency, like it had some delay.

For reasonable length XLR balanced interconnect cables in reasonable residential environments, it's highly unlikely that there are audible differences between all well constructed Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) cables.
However harsh interference environments might be a different story.

Agree to disagree. IMO 7 meters in total can make a different between shield and non shielded cable, with higher capacitance shielded cable more warm and lack brightness. Even the capacitance between strands count and strands size are audible, in term of transcient response.

 

[Katji]

Ok, so you use the denial variant of the known reactions.

Not really, the vintage sound/"real music" sound of tin copper core actually are well documented

What is that sound, technically, how is it shown in repeatable controlled tests etc.?

It's by no mean an expensive cable due to the material price, but I had compared it to slightly expensive cable

How is "expensive" related to your [perceived/whatever] findings? And what is "slightly expensive"? Is it relative, is it subjective?

 

[Slayer]

Not really, the vintage sound/"real music" sound of tin copper core actually are well documented if you google it a bit. It's by no mean an expensive cable due to the material price, but I had compared it to slightly expensive cable and it's definitely translate the harmony, room sound etc much better. The drawback is probably much lower transient response at higher frequency, like it had some delay.

So because you found it on google it must be true? I'm starting to get the feeling no matter what you are told here, because you are so locked in on your way of thinking, it's not going to change your mind.
However, I will try one last time. As long as a cable is not broken in some way or another, a $10 cable will sound no different than a $1,000 cable.
Spend one day reading here, looking at cable reviews and comparisons, maybe, just maybe, you will start to see the light.

 

[BDWoody]

Not really, those japanese manufacurer really guarded their manufacturer secret with their life. They don't even put their strands count, shielding/ground strands count + AWG on their website.

Does that make sense to you based on your stated education?

What is electronic engineering? I have a feel for what Electrical Engineers have had to slog through, but not the electronic engineering folks.

It is doubtful that the things you are hearing can't be explained by simple bias in action.

 

[Speedskater]

Agree to disagree. IMO 7 meters in total can make a different between shield and non shielded cable

non shielded cable is not a Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) cable.

 

[leeking2005]

So because you found it on google it must be true? I'm starting to get the feeling no matter what you are told here, because you are so locked in on your way of thinking, it's not going to change your mind.
However, I will try one last time. As long as a cable is not broken in some way or another, a $10 cable will sound no different than a $1,000 cable.
Spend one day reading here, looking at cable reviews and comparisons, maybe, just maybe, you will start to see the light.

It's actually real physics, a very simple one also. I don't want to explain it in long sentences cause it doesn't related to my post actually.

They use the slight differentation of electron travelling speed in different material to create a slight delay in different frequency so that it's much like reverb/echo that mellow out the harsh timble and the sound. It's like you listen to something in a real room, with some noticeable room effects/warm.

Does that make sense to you based on your stated education?

What is electronic engineering? I have a feel for what Electrical Engineers have had to slog through, but not the electronic engineering folks.

It is doubtful that the things you are hearing can't be explained by simple bias in action.

My bad, my full major are actually Bachelor degree of electronic majoring in Multimedia. So suffice to say I know about speakers, amp, dac and etc. Electrical usually deal with current that range from 50-60hz only, usually only electronic engineer using dc to 35khz (even Gigahz for digital).

non shielded cable is not a Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) cable.

So what you said is it's not normal, thanks for this particular information.

But I disagree to your statement they will all sounded the same. Different materials, gauge, strands count, strands size, oxidization level, even current load ,temperature, dielectric, shielding method, length and etc will had different effect to the signal that will be boosted tenth to hundreds times.

Usually it's the speaker cable that don't need much design, just correct material, gauge size and appropriate short length.

 

[Slayer]

It's actually real physics, a very simple one also. I don't want to explain it in long sentences cause it doesn't related to my post actually.

But I disagree to your statement they will all sounded the same.

If you say so. Good luck in your endeavor, i'm not playing this game anymore. I'll just take my ball and go home, thank you.

 

[wwenze]

That's gotta be one bad attempt at Argument from Authority if you can even call it that

 

[leeking2005]

If you say so. Good luck in your endeavor, i'm not playing this game anymore. I'll just take my ball and go home, thank you.

Well, thanks for your time.

I actually managed to understand why it had compression effect after I research some answer from DonH56.

Physics is that simple actually

 

[DVDdoug]

I hate to extend this conversation but...

This is the 2nd time this morning I've posted a link to Audiophoolery.

It's actually real physics, a very simple one also.

Yes, and no. There are limits to human perception.

And in-fact it's pretty easy to transmit audio-signals over relatively short distances without measurable degradation (in the audio range), even without considering perception.

In general, we can measure things better than we can hear and we can almost always measure anything that we can hear. I have a 100MHz 'scope in front of me, but I'm not going to buy an audio amplifier just because it has good performance in the ultrasonic range.

There are a few things like MP3 compression artifacts that don't show-up in ordinary audio measurements... But that doesn't apply to cables, amplifiers, speakers, etc.

I assume you took a psychology class? ...More limits and "imperfections" in human perception.

I didn't see anything about careful, scientific, blind listening tests.

What Is A Blind ABX Test?

Physics is that simple actually

This forum isn't about pure-physics... It's about audio, which more about applied-physics... Applied-to and limited-to audio, and human psychology, physiology, and perception.

And I wouldn't say physics is "simple". Most people don't take a physics class and I'd guess most people would fail. And of course physics can get very-advanced beyond anything I've studied and beyond anything I could ever understand.

 

[BDWoody]

And of course physics can get very-advanced beyond anything I've studied and beyond anything I could ever understand.

 

[leeking2005]

I hate to extend this conversation but...

This is the 2nd time this morning I've posted a link to Audiophoolery.


Yes, and no. There are limits to human perception.

And in-fact it's pretty easy to transmit audio-signals over relatively short distances without measurable degradation (in the audio range), even without considering perception.

In general, we can measure things better than we can hear and we can almost always measure anything that we can hear. I have a 100MHz 'scope in front of me, but I'm not going to buy an audio amplifier just because it has good performance in the ultrasonic range.

There are a few things like MP3 compression artifacts that don't show-up in ordinary audio measurements... But that doesn't apply to cables, amplifiers, speakers, etc.

I assume you took a psychology class? ...More limits and "imperfections" in human perception.

I didn't see anything about careful, scientific, blind listening tests.

What Is A Blind ABX Test?


This forum isn't about pure-physics... It's about audio, which more about applied-physics... Applied-to and limited-to audio, and human psychology, physiology, and perception.

And I wouldn't say physics is "simple". Most people don't take a physics class and I'd guess most people would fail. And of course physics can get very-advanced beyond anything I've studied and beyond anything I could ever understand.

Haha, agree to disagree.

My course actually doesn't cover psychology class (I learn at my own interest anyway), but we do learn the perception of human hearing, vision , brain development, emotional and other's limition and some important technologies limitation (also very minor, but I also learn the rest at my own interest anyway).

I would say physic is pretty simple, compared to what you "think" is simple (human hearing capabilities, aka biology). For example, we can use mathematically equation and binary to easily quantify frequancy response, transcient response, digital audio, analog audio both in time and frequency domain. But we can never use mathematical equation to convert human hearing capabilities, vision and other organ functionality into binary code, computing or simulation. (Well, we can mimicking it by using completely different material, but it's nowhere as sensitive and original as the biology counterpart. We can even conducting the sound as bone vibration, but it's still just mimicking what biology counterpart does.)

But as many of the "normal" person before us, we always try to simplify something far complicated than our comprehension knowledges into something we can related. It's one of very common human weaknesses actually if you had thought about that. I would say if you use that kind of weaknesses in physic it's just 50/50 chances (maybe even 70/30 cause in physic everything is related to few simple law).

But if you use that kind of human weaknesses in biology, more often than not you're in for catastrophic wrong. One very famous example is the Thomas Edison hatching eggs story. It's a biologically being that had been known for centuries, yet we still think it's some magic or voodoo to say human can hatch eggs that other species done for century. The simple truth is, don't simplify complicate things, if you had no idea what you're looking at. This is especially true in Biology out of all three sciences' branch.

Since biology structure is hard to be quantify and simulate in mathematical equation alone, usually we use diagnosis, sample rate, relatively variable and probability in almost all biology experiment. Hence where the limitation of technology came in, In audio science we try to use measuring device and listening test (blind or not blind). In medical they used sample rate and prediction.

But long story short, it's never that reliable, and with technology improvement, it became more and more reliable every decades or so. But it still need to verify for usually longer than a decade to see if a hypothesis hold true. And in audio those hypothesis kinda didn't hold well for decades, hence the mentioning of tube vs opamp, mp3 vs uncompressed, vinyl vs cd, 44khz vs 192khz, copper vs gold sound signature.

And as far as I'm concerned, the TC core vintage sound signature cable (even regular 2 meter cheapo) is considered verified theory due to the sample rate it currently had. Of course the night and days sound different also help, but the sample rates and the duration it'd been tested was undeniedable. Other type of material, strands count, gauge effect, length, oxidization effect and etc also pretty much makes sense and without much contradiction in physic (although some are more consistent compared to other in sample testing).

But length, strands count/strands gauge size, materials, shielding material or even temperature pretty much comfirmed altering sound regardless you use balanced cable or not.

 

[joeren]

Not really, those japanese manufacurer really guarded their manufacturer secret with their life. They don't even put their strands count, shielding/ground strands count + AWG on their website.

Just listening using my cheap studio monitor, it's not a pair of 3-4 figures cable by any mean.

You don’t need the strand count if you have the impedance, capacitance and inductance. This is all you need to know for ”any” cable.