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D'appolito arrayed speakers ... standing centre channel speakers on end.

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I've been thinking about ways to produce more compact living room setups. First for myself then for my friends...

The best I can figure from available information and a bit of reading is that I might be happiest with a D'appolito WTW array ... essentially a centre speaker stood on it's end. I also know from REW and listening that my room seems best with 6.5" woofers. I've tried larger and smaller... 6.5 inchers are just about right. I've had both towers and lollipops in here with that woofer size and they work nicely.

So... what I'm picturing is a pair of 6.5" WTW speakers, perhaps on low stands, so the tops of the speakers are about 30" off the floor.

I would like to hear from people who've actually done this or very similar, and what their experience with it has been.

Thanks!
 

Dougey_Jones

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I've been thinking about ways to produce more compact living room setups. First for myself then for my friends...

The best I can figure from available information and a bit of reading is that I might be happiest with a D'appolito WTW array ... essentially a centre speaker stood on it's end. I also know from REW and listening that my room seems best with 6.5" woofers. I've tried larger and smaller... 6.5 inchers are just about right. I've had both towers and lollipops in here with that woofer size and they work nicely.

So... what I'm picturing is a pair of 6.5" WTW speakers, perhaps on low stands, so the tops of the speakers are about 30" off the floor.

I would like to hear from people who've actually done this or very similar, and what their experience with it has been.

Thanks!
I've been meaning to ask this question, since people on here are adamant that the dispersion of WTW center speakers is basically a criminal offense. I was planning on turning my Monitor Audio GRc on it's end, but then read that in a stroke of early 2000's genius, Monitor Audio actually designed the crossover to have the two 6.5" CCAM woofers cover slightly different frequency ranges. So I guess that actually makes it a three-way speaker..

My question is, with that being the case, should that alleviate the dispersion/lobing issues that people usually attribute to WTW configurations, or am I screwed either way?
 
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I've been meaning to ask this question, since people on here are adamant that the dispersion of WTW center speakers is basically a criminal offense. I was planning on turning my Monitor Audio GRc on it's end, but then read that in a stroke of early 2000's genius, Monitor Audio actually designed the crossover to have the two 6.5" CCAM woofers cover slightly different frequency ranges. So I guess that actually makes it a three-way speaker..

My question is, with that being the case, should that alleviate the dispersion/lobing issues that people usually attribute to WTW configurations, or am I screwed either way?

Generally, from what I've read D'Appolito arrays, on end, will have better horizontal dispersion than vertical. Which makes me wonder why centre speakers are designed as they are... You pose a good question, why would they do that?
 

Plcamp

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I intend to do this config to replace the 8” fullrange in my open baffles…ie from about 250 hz up use two 5” or 6” woofers - the SB acoustics ceramic drivers are great between 250 hz and 2 kHz…looking for a tweeter, perhaps a Bliesma in a 5” wide waveguide to match the woofers.
 

Dougey_Jones

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Yes.
But it’s a matter of degree and tolerance.
Room is only 12' wide, if I sit in the center seat most of the time how bad could the dispersion really be?
 

dc655321

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Room is only 12' wide, if I sit in the center seat most of the time how bad could the dispersion really be?

Does the room have walls?
Any acoustic treatments?

I did say the compromises would be a matter of degree and tolerance…
 

ryanosaur

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MTM designs are not inherently evil. While there are (perhaps) better design options, a vertical MTM is considered a pretty decent 2-way affair. Unless I missed something, I do not believe it was the original goal to tip them on their side. This, frankly is a conversation for a flame thread about stupid design ideas to fit silly preconceived household furniture. :p

I think a well designed Front Stage of vertical MTMs could acquit itself quite nicely, and could even be utilized at Surround/Rear positions, too.

An example of such that reviews pretty decently is the Outlaw LCRv2. I'm not going to argue that it is the best thing on the planet, but it demonstrates nicely what is capable, and with work, perhaps bested.
 
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I intend to do this config to replace the 8” fullrange in my open baffles…ie from about 250 hz up use two 5” or 6” woofers - the SB acoustics ceramic drivers are great between 250 hz and 2 kHz…looking for a tweeter, perhaps a Bliesma in a 5” wide waveguide to match the woofers.

Sounds interesting... But I'm after something a little more generic.

Like this....

12x20-2.jpg
One of the things my clients keep asking for is more compact speakers. They don't want 40" tall "monster towers" and they know that bookshelves on stands are top heavy and dangerous to kids... so a couple have started asking for something compact that can sit near the floor, on a lower stand. My thought was that centre channel speakers are the right size but may not have the right dispersion patterns... I've never played with this idea before and I'm not going to spend a grand to find out... so I thought I would ask, here, and see if anyone's done this.
 

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Does the room have walls?
Any acoustic treatments?

I did say the compromises would be a matter of degree and tolerance…
12' x 25' rectangle with the front sound stage at one end. Room's not complete yet, still under construction, but there will be acoustic panels on the side walls to soak up the first reflection from the L/R and possibly a panel or two on the ceiling above the listening space. Gonna be difficult to get that done though because ceiling fan.
 

Rednaxela

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This will probably not be the case for every centre speaker, but the KEF R2C’s for instance don’t go very low. Might be something to pay attention to.
 

ryanosaur

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Sounds interesting... But I'm after something a little more generic.

Like this....

One of the things my clients keep asking for is more compact speakers. They don't want 40" tall "monster towers" and they know that bookshelves on stands are top heavy and dangerous to kids... so a couple have started asking for something compact that can sit near the floor, on a lower stand. My thought was that centre channel speakers are the right size but may not have the right dispersion patterns... I've never played with this idea before and I'm not going to spend a grand to find out... so I thought I would ask, here, and see if anyone's done this.
The key in this design is that the two woofers will interact destructively with each other. Tweeter axis still needs to be respected and at a height ideally ±10º or less respective to the user's seated ear height.
Stands do not need to be so low to be stable and "safe." However, if it is the end users intent to keep them low, then you can always tip the speaker back a little to get the axis aimed more at the User. In my mind, the tipping of the speaker will create more instability than a proper stand at the right height.
 
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This, frankly is a conversation for a flame thread about stupid design ideas to fit silly preconceived household furniture. :p
1) Is there anything here that is not "a flame thread"?

2) I understand what my guys want and it is definitely about furniture. They want their systems to fit into their living rooms and recrooms they aren't building dedicated rooms, nor do I suggest they should. The home entertainment system needs to fit into their lives, not take it over.
 
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The key in this design is that the two woofers will interact destructively with each other. Tweeter axis still needs to be respected and at a height ideally ±10º or less respective to the user's seated ear height.

In this situation that is not going to happen. The whole point is they want something that doesn't dominate the room. They're neither audiophiles nor perfectionists ... they're paying me for "better TV sound" for the most part.

Picture mom and dad on the couch watching a movie and the kids on the floor with their toys... that sort of thing.

Stands do not need to be so low to be stable and "safe." However, if it is the end users intent to keep them low, then you can always tip the speaker back a little to get the axis aimed more at the User. In my mind, the tipping of the speaker will create more instability than a proper stand at the right height.

You might be surprised how often I get called about "The kids tipped over my speakers"... And almost always it's either a tall skinny tower or a bookshelf speaker on a lollypop stand...
 
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This will probably not be the case for every centre speaker, but the KEF R2C’s for instance don’t go very low. Might be something to pay attention to.

Thanks ... that is a consideration. These things are sold as "soundbar killers" and the idea of bigger speakers and a sub doesn't always win the day. Mostly they want rid of the subwoofer as much as they want better sound...
 

ryanosaur

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1) Is there anything here that is not "a flame thread"?
LOL
2) I understand what my guys want and it is definitely about furniture. They want their systems to fit into their living rooms and recrooms they aren't building dedicated rooms, nor do I suggest they should. The home entertainment system needs to fit into the lives, not take it over.
I get where you are coming from. I was referencing the tipping of a Speaker on its side as is common for center channels. I know not everybody wants a tricked out theater scene in their home. :)
You might be surprised how often I get called about "The kids tipped over my speakers"... And almost always it's either a tall skinny tower or a bookshelf speaker on a lollypop stand...
Fair enough.

Frankly, a small 3-way monitor would likely give you more flexibility than a 2-way MTM in vertical alignment, merely from the standpoint of the tweeter being higher up on the cabinet and not having the potential of other interference effects diminishing the directivity patterns.
I successfully used my BMR monitors canted on an improperly sized stand for several months while my mains were being built. If you have the means to custom build the stands, then you should be able to achieve the design necessary to accommodate such a plan. Any standmount Speaker could be accommodated this way.
I would almost argue against the MTM since the listening angles wouldn't be the best for good directivity and thus audibility may be compromised. Any good quality 2- or 3-way Monitor could be utilized in this scenario that you propose.
 
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I get where you are coming from. I was referencing the tipping of a Speaker on its side as is common for center channels. I know not everybody wants a tricked out theater scene in their home. :)

I'm often met with "I'm not an audiophile and I don't want their crap in my home" ... which I understand. They've seen pictures of home theatres and listening rooms all tricked out with absorbers and diffusers with monster speakers and the equipment laid out on the floor and for them that's a decorating disaster waiting to happen.

This is my current system ...

system2.png
... and they're telling me the speakers are too tall... I think what they want is something that will sit at the sides of the stand and maybe just peek over the top... Kind of like the old-school L-100s or the Heresys would... but, of course, without the price tag.

Frankly, a small 3-way monitor would likely give you more flexibility than a 2-way MTM in vertical alignment, merely from the standpoint of the tweeter being higher up on the cabinet and not having the potential of other interference effects diminishing the directivity patterns.

Excellent suggestion ... I'll look into it and see what I can find.

I would almost argue against the MTM since the listening angles wouldn't be the best for good directivity and thus audibility may be compromised. Any good quality 2- or 3-way Monitor could be utilized in this scenario that you propose.

I'm prone to agree ... but I was also looking for something with a decent amount of woofer cone and centre channels seemed to fit the bill.
 

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I'm often met with "I'm not an audiophile and I don't want their crap in my home"

Eww, brings back memories of selling HiFi in a big box store in the early aughts. Soon as I heard that, I led the inevitable domineering wife and husband on a leash to the Bose Lifestyle room and made a pile of money selling them crap.
 

ryanosaur

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I'm often met with "I'm not an audiophile and I don't want their crap in my home" ... which I understand. They've seen pictures of home theatres and listening rooms all tricked out with absorbers and diffusers with monster speakers and the equipment laid out on the floor and for them that's a decorating disaster waiting to happen.

This is my current system ...

system2.png
... and they're telling me the speakers are too tall... I think what they want is something that will sit at the sides of the stand and maybe just peek over the top... Kind of like the old-school L-100s or the Heresys would... but, of course, without the price tag.



Excellent suggestion ... I'll look into it and see what I can find.



I'm prone to agree ... but I was also looking for something with a decent amount of woofer cone and centre channels seemed to fit the bill.
I get the feeling you understand well the trade offs in Speaker design. Sensitivity, extension and size… yet even those aspects don’t cover everything. ;)
The thing with two woofers in an mtm is that it doesn’t give extension, just an SPL boost and better power handling. You could achieve better, all things being equal, using a tmm alignment and eliminating the interference between woofers.
*shrugs
Something like the sigberg monitor (coaxial+woofer 3-way) could almost be ideal if it was built to play lower, but that wasn’t their design goal as it is meant to be paired to a sub.
Regardless, there are a lot of options at many price points. I think you can find a successful balance with many of them and your low stand.
I was thinking about that, too, and having a tilted base to aim at the seated ear height could be further stabilized with a little back bumper of some sort. Sadly, product like that doesn’t seem to exist in the marketplace. Building and finishing it nicely will cost just as much as a good set of Speakers! :p

Good luck! :)
 
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Eww, brings back memories of selling HiFi in a big box store in the early aughts. Soon as I heard that, I led the inevitable domineering wife and husband on a leash to the Bose Lifestyle room and made a pile of money selling them crap.

I get their wishes ... they want good sound without giving up half their living space or taking out a second mortgage to get it.

A typical Sound Bar Killer is something like an Aiyima A07 and a nice pair of bookshelf speakers... Half the time the speakers end up on the ends of their TV stand or on a pair of end tables... I'm very cautious about safety since almost always their are either kids or grand kids in the house. I was hoping to solve the problem with a pair of small floor standers... like the L-100s but no way they're spending that kind of money on better TV sound.... and FWIW I agree there are limits.

It's too bad Radio Shack is gone ... their "Minimus 8" speakers would be perfect ... 8 inch woofer, 2 inch paper tweeters, and that rich "old radio" sound...
 
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