Review and Measurements of Denon AVR-4306

[andreasmaaan]

There is from me....

Same here.

what about class T? Does it have Phase shift?

Class T is just tripath’s name for their class D amps. It’s basically the same technology.

 

[JJB70]

I think Class D is like any other possible design solution, if well implemented well it can be perfectly satisfactory. And it is an awful lot more efficient than Class A (although I can see a big Class A amp might be quite handy in an Arctic winter).

 

[restorer-john]

Class D has taken over the amplification world in real terms. It's in every cellphone, bluetooth speaker, car audio, professional sound reinforcement amplifier, wireless headphone etc.

40 years ago we had high quality, beautifully engineered audiophile PWM audio amplifiers driven by similar SMPS supplies, so they are nothing new.

They couldn't compete on absolute performance parameters back then (except output power per kilogram) and they still can't now.

That said, I do want to hear and play with, a state of the art, medium-high powered Class D amplifier again soon.

 

[maty]

I have a thread in a very audiophile forum:

Amplifiers with IcePower 1200AS2, class D module
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156237.0

and I participated a lot in another deleted thread in the same forum where I contributed my knowledge so that the amplifier that was going to be sold had the best components and that it was well protected from the RF / EMI, which is another of its weaknesses.

If I find a problem or possible problem (with acoustic music like classical, jazz and old records before the 80's, without electronics instruments, computers... in few words: music without autotune and others sound manipulations) I can not look the other way. Purchases must always be thoughtful, based on good information / documentation.

PS: maybe a new thread about class D technology would be the most appropriate to not further distort this thread.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have a thread in a very audiophile forum:

Amplifiers with IcePower 1200AS2, class D module
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156237.0

and I participated a lot in another deleted thread in the same forum where I contributed my knowledge so that the amplifier that was going to be sold had the best components and that it was well protected from the RF / EMI, which is another of its weaknesses.

If I find a problem or possible problem (with acoustic music like classical, jazz and old records before the 80's, without electronics instruments, computers... in few words: music without autotune and others sound manipulations) I can not look the other way. Purchases must always be thoughtful, based on good information / documentation.

PS: maybe a new thread about class D technology would be the most appropriate to not further distort this thread.

There are already quite a few threads where this is discussed here.

Could I just clarify what your objections are:

• group delay caused by low pass filtering
• possible load-dependent non-linearity in the frequency response resulting from interaction between the output impedance of the amplifier and the load impedance of the speakers

Is that a fair summary?

Also, I disagree with your view that pre-80s classical and jazz recordings etc do not contain "other sound manipulations". Virtually all recordings are manipulated by dynamic compression and EQ, and often by other effects too. These deliberate distortions are a very normal (and desirable) part of mixing and mastering, and are ubiquitous in music released since the 1950s.

 

[maty]

Off course that commercial music, old or new, has sound manipulations but now is terrible. If the voice is already altered by a computer program, with phase change included, an additional change will be difficult to detect.

I look for naturalness, credibility and EMOTION when listening to music and that is very difficult to find now. Usually from "old" analogue masters. Correct timbre, that the violin is easily differentiated from a viola...

Others search spectacular sound but where is the EMOTION?

 

[maty]

Naturalness... like

DIY speakers kit: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Otello.html

 

[Wombat]

Off course that commercial music, old or new, has sound manipulations but now is terrible. If the voice is already altered by a computer program, with phase change included, an additional change will be difficult to detect.

I look for naturalness, credibility and EMOTION when listening to music and that is very difficult to find now. Usually from "old" analogue masters. Correct timbre, that the violin is easily differentiated from a viola...

Others search spectacular sound but where is the EMOTION?

A recording is a recording. Some we prefer or even get involved with. However my preferences may not be yours. Move beyond self-centrism when judging a long and wide moving history of musical and mastering interpretation. It is OK to have druthers but they won't be universal.

I am pleased that there is more recorded material out there that I would like than I could ever get to hear. And, when it was recorded it wasn't made to specifically please everybody, so just enjoy what 'floats-your-boat' and don't risk being seen as music snob.

Nothing is forever, nothing stays the same.

 

[Wombat]

Naturalness... like

DIY speakers kit: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Otello.html

I see that as highly trained, controlled, contrived, exaggerated and unnatural, and more a construct of getting the voice to carry unamplified(historically).
I have never heard such dramatic interpretation of emotion in real life. See, there are different viewpoints.

I find what you refer to in the old original Blues and Jazz artists.

Different strokes ....... .

 

[andreasmaaan]

Off course that commercial music, old or new, has sound manipulations but now is terrible. If the voice is already altered by a computer program, with phase change included, an additional change will be difficult to detect.

I look for naturalness, credibility and EMOTION when listening to music and that is very difficult to find now. Usually from "old" analogue masters. Correct timbre, that the violin is easily differentiated from a viola...

Others search spectacular sound but where is the EMOTION?

Well that's your taste and that's fine, but it's a separate issue from whether a particular distortion produced by a particular device is audible or not.

Indeed, "natural" recordings are often worse at showing up distortion (see research into the audibility of lossy compression codecs).

 

[maty]

Blues, jazz or classical. Some months ago I commented:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1672876#msg1672876

[ This vinyl collection (LPx3) sounds GLORIOUS!

Mravinsky, Leningrader P - Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos 4, 5 & 6 "Pathetique" (1961) (2017 German pressing)

...With the III and IV of Symphony No 5 I had to stand up. You had to imagine me circling the room moving my arms vigorously as if I were the director. Adrenaline rush.

A little more I get on a tank and invade Europe

]

I want this kind of EMOTION.

 

[Killingbeans]

One mans EMOTION is another mans NAUSEA

@maty: Have you ever actually heard a (well engineered) Class D amp playing?

All I see is a man pointing at some measurements showing large phase shifts in a few designs and then postulating, that this fact alone will somehow make all Class D amps unable to convey music in a way that triggers an emotional response.

At the same time you quote people saying that these phase shifts will be nearly impossible to detect by human ears, and that the little amount that could be detectable, will drown completely in the nightmarish acoustical response from a typical living room.

I can't really tell whether you are on a mindless crusade, or are just anxious about "new" technology

My next upgrade will most likely be a pair of Hypex NC400. So far I have found nothing indicating, that they will be incapable of inducing an emotional response in me.

 

[sbsj]

Great review Amir. I hope one day you can measure the Marantz HD-DAC1.
I have been eyeing it for my HD6xx

 

[amirm]

Great review Amir. I hope one day you can measure the Marantz HD-DAC1.

Thanks. I have a Marantz HD-AMP1 in for review. Is the DAC section the same?

 

[sbsj]

Thanks. I have a Marantz HD-AMP1 in for review. Is the DAC section the same?

Hi Amir,
I checked Marantz website. The Amp1 uses SABRE ES9010K2M , the DAC-1 uses CS4398
Also the DAC1 only powers headphones

 

[bravomail]

Archimago has a review of Yamaha 781 receiver with 103db DR and -104db noise. So brand of receiver will play a role.

 

[amirm]

Archimago has a review of Yamaha 781 receiver with 103db DR and -104db noise. So brand of receiver will play a role.

I looked and he was measuring the DAC performance in it, not amplification.

 

[Jean-Philippe]

Hi @amirm ,

First of all, thanks to the team for the reviews on this site. they are very helpful and informative. Besides, your review on the topping D50 has really interested me. And then, I just read this review.

And now, I am a little bit puzzled and really ask myself several questions:
1 / I thought that connecting an external DAC to an analog input and use the direct mode had no interest because the amplification was still processing the signal, even at a minimum. So, my amp would have degraded the signal. So am I wrong? It means only the power amplication part of the AVR is used in this case ?
2 / I own a Yamaha RX-V683, which includes a "limited" DAC at 24bits / 192khz. Am I mistaken in saying that one way to upgrade stereo sound quality would be to use an external DAC with 32 bits/384Khz, like the topping D50?
3 / I know it's difficult to answer without having the measurements of the AVR but if I am upgrading to a DAC of better quality, the quality of power amplification that would be used in this direct mode could be enough ? This question because I was planning to bought a stereo amplifier with the topping and your article seems to indicate this is perhaps not the best solution. I always heard that AVR got poor sound quality even in the analog stage so this is a little bit surprising to me.

Once again, thanks for all the measurements and the information you provide.

 

[amirm]

And now, I am a little bit puzzled and really ask myself several questions:
1 / I thought that connecting an external DAC to an analog input and use the direct mode had no interest because the amplification was still processing the signal, even at a minimum. So, my amp would have degraded the signal. So am I wrong? It means only the power amplication part of the AVR is used in this case ?

Welcome to the forum Jean Philippe.

Mostly yes. Distortion is additive so the more you add in the DAC, the more it will add to the amplifier.

2 / I own a Yamaha RX-V683, which includes a "limited" DAC at 24bits / 192khz. Am I mistaken in saying that one way to upgrade stereo sound quality would be to use an external DAC with 32 bits/384Khz, like the topping D50?

No, I don't think there will be distinct audible improvement unless that DAC is really, really bad which I doubt.

3 / I know it's difficult to answer without having the measurements of the AVR but if I am upgrading to a DAC of better quality, the quality of power amplification that would be used in this direct mode could be enough ? This question because I was planning to bought a stereo amplifier with the topping and your article seems to indicate this is perhaps not the best solution. I always heard that AVR got poor sound quality even in the analog stage so this is a little bit surprising to me.

We have a very small sample size of AVRs and amplifiers. I am hoping over time we identify better performing units.

For now, my advice would be to forget about upgrading electronics and focus on speaker, sound, DSP, room correction, etc.

 

[Jean-Philippe]

Thanks for the answer.

In term of speaker I have 2 Monitor Audio bronze 2 which are surely not the best but I am very pleased with them and do not want to change them for now. Moreover, upgrading them will be really expensive IMHO.