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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 29 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 488 93.5%

  • Total voters
    522

lherrm

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When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them:)
The problem is you will never get a satisfying answer, because there is none.
Speaker X is not absolutely superior to speaker Y (well, maybe it could be, but then it would be more expensive) and all others speakers.
It's all a matter of compromise.
You are caught in analysis paralysis.
 

Frank Dernie

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Speaker X is not absolutely superior to speaker Y (well, maybe it could be, but then it would be more expensive) and all others speakers.
I agree with you apart from the "more expensive" bit. Whilst price obviously has a bearing IME using more expensive as a simile for better is less accurate in hifi than in any other product I am aware of outside the fashion arena (IMO hifi may well be in the fashion arena for a lot of buyers though)
 

HarmonicTHD

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I see this comment a lot - subs "relieve" other drivers and mids sound cleaner.
Surely this would be measurable? Distortion measurements?
Yes by looking for example at distortion measurements speaker w/o sub at bass frequencies vs sub distortion at those frequencies at comparable SPL levels.

Second effect comes from the possibility of better managing any room modes by strategically placing the sub(s). The FR measurements (and research Toole, Olive ) clearly show this.

Pick a specific example so you can get a less generic answer.
 
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thewas

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The problem is you will never get a satisfying answer, because there is none.
Speaker X is not absolutely superior to speaker Y (well, maybe it could be, but then it would be more expensive) and all others speakers.
It's all a matter of compromise.
You are caught in analysis paralysis.
Exactly this.
When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them:)
Also, for example it seems you like the Focal sound/tuning more than the Genelec one and that one more than the Neumann one, what does it bring to you then when people tell you that the Neumann is objectively better than the Focal? In the end like most of us here you are a music listener and not a music creator, in that case it is usually a better buy for you to choose the loudspeaker you enjoy more than the one that is objectively better / more neutral.
 

Absolute

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When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them:)
Unless you have very good acoustics and a multi-sub setup of some kind, your sound quality potential is likely limited by the room and not speakers of that quality.

In my experience the tonality itself will only get you so far. How the speaker interacts with your room is more important. If you have excessive trouble between 20-500 hz and/or flutter above it doesn't really matter if the speaker is 10% better or worse, you'll be limited by the assholeness of physics.

If you're obsessed by maximizing sound quality within a budget, I would highly recommend putting the bass system, dsp solution and room acoustics at the very top of your priority list and allow a significant portion of the budget to those things.
 

thewas

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Unless you have very good acoustics and a multi-sub setup of some kind, your sound quality potential is likely limited by the room and not speakers of that quality.

In my experience the tonality itself will only get you so far. How the speaker interacts with your room is more important. If you have excessive trouble between 20-500 hz and/or flutter above it doesn't really matter if the speaker is 10% better or worse, you'll be limited by the assholeness of physics.

If you're obsessed by maximizing sound quality within a budget, I would highly recommend putting the bass system, dsp solution and room acoustics at the very top of your priority list and allow a significant portion of the budget to those things.
Spot on, fully matches my past experiences.
 

Blockader

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I see this comment a lot - subs "relieve" other drivers and mids sound cleaner.
Surely this would be measurable? Distortion measurements?
Of course, less excursion for the driver which covers the midrange, less doppler effect hence less IMD.
neumann IMD.png
 

Pearljam5000

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Exactly this.

Also, for example it seems you like the Focal sound/tuning more than the Genelec one and that one more than the Neumann one, what does it bring to you then when people tell you that the Neumann is objectively better than the Focal? In the end like most of us here you are a music listener and not a music creator, in that case it is usually a better buy for you to choose the loudspeaker you enjoy more than the one that is objectively better / more neutral.
Focal sound is more "musical" but Genelec is more brutal and honest and has better separation and Tonality
It's hard to choose but I'd choose the Genelec sound as I don't want anything added to the recording itself.
And if Genelec adds a beryllium tweeter I'm willing to marry it too;)
 

HarmonicTHD

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Focal sound is more "musical" but Genelec is more brutal and honest and has better separation and Tonality
It's hard to choose but I'd choose the Genelec sound as I don't want anything added to the recording itself.
And if Genelec adds a beryllium tweeter I'm willing to marry it too;)
Please explain why Beryllium sounds better (facts pls) and how it would improve the Genelec or Neumann speaker you are referring to?
 
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thewas

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Focal sound is more "musical" but Genelec is more brutal and honest and has better separation and Tonality
It's hard to choose but I'd choose the Genelec sound as I don't want anything added to the recording itself.
And if Genelec adds a beryllium tweeter I'm willing to marry it too;)
As discussed in other threads already what you hear differently is not the material of the tweeter but the wider directivity and different tuning of the Focal.
 

tr1ple6

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Please explain why Beryllium sounds better (facts pls) and how it would improve the Genelec or Neumann speaker you are referring to?
I think he finds metal tweeters too tinny, too much of a sparkly high with diamond and silk domes too silky smooth. Perhaps he'll end finding beryllium tweeters too poisony
 

Pearljam5000

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Please explain why Beryllium sounds better (facts pls) and how it would improve the Genelec or Neumann speaker you are referring to?
The only "fact" is every beryllium tweeter i heard sounded great to me
I really don't think Focal or any brand would bother with beryllium if it had 0 impact on the sound because it's very expensive and complicated to manufacture.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
 

tifune

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It takes one to know one; @Pearljam5000 my friend, as an bonafide aficionado on the subject, this is accurate. My one and only regret in this hobby is occasionally falling into the 'listening to gear rather than music' trap because I suffer the same condition, don't let it happen to you!

Your 2 options are get over it, which is of course easier said than done, or accept it and find some way to make it work for you. Here's some totally unsolicited advice from a stranger on the internet who can empathize with your situation. The strategies I use, maybe they're useful maybe worthless:

Never pay full price for any depreciating asset - b-stock (open box/customer return, refurb, blemished) or closeout pricing only. That way I can sell for minimal loss if it doesn't work out. In a way, this eliminates 90% of my "options" because I don't see full price as an option.

Get the cheapest option of something that interests you, and think critically "Do I want more of <this>?" For example, for my friends who aren't in this hobby I explain the difference between JBL/Revel and Kef/Genelec as 'wide' vs 'deep'. Almost anyone reading this knows that's a dramatic oversimplification, but to decide which I preferred (spoiler: both) I got a set of LSR 305's (used) and Kali IN-8v1 (open box) and lived with them for some time before stepping up price-wise.

Don't be afraid of return periods. I always get someone on the phone, confirm my expectations, if I move ahead I have the invoice emailed to me and then reply confirming the return policy. An aggressive sales rep might give you hassle, at which point I usually just defer to the email so I don't have to listen to their insipid whining when I could be listening to Chubby and the Gang.

Last, and I have no idea what options exist for this outside the USA, 0% loans if you're pretty confident but not totally confident about a selection. Do not get suckered into a higher overall price just to land 0%! Just as important, don't do it if you aren't able to pay it off by the day such offer expires because the millisecond that rolls over, your selection just became x% (23% is what I tend to see) more than it would have been outright. In the USA, such deals can be anywhere from 6-24 months; you'll know within 3 months if it's the right choice, leaving you with at least 3 months to sell.

With that little list of rules, I've maybe lost 5-10% at most, while gaining a lot more confidence in my perceived vs. actual preferences around gear. Even then, 1/3 of that was on shipping/donations for amir and Erin to test a few submissions. Anyways, the KH420 sure is great... My take vs. 8361: here in USA it looks like KH420 price just went up to $5200/ea, so unfortunately I'd have to lean toward the 8361 simply because, for the moment, it's a more future proof option. Will be interesting to see what GLM 4.2 brings. I believe in other parts of the world, KH420 is quite a bit cheaper especially if VAT doesn't apply to you so decision wouldn't be as easy. Apologies for polluting the thread with these pontifications
 

Frgirard

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The only "fact" is every beryllium tweeter i heard sounded great to me
I really don't think Focal or any brand would bother with beryllium if it had 0 impact on the sound because it's very expensive and complicated to manufacture.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Buy a pair of Yamaha ns1000. You will have the mid and tweeter in berylium.
 

Pearljam5000

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It takes one to know one; @Pearljam5000 my friend, as an bonafide aficionado on the subject, this is accurate. My one and only regret in this hobby is occasionally falling into the 'listening to gear rather than music' trap because I suffer the same condition, don't let it happen to you!

Your 2 options are get over it, which is of course easier said than done, or accept it and find some way to make it work for you. Here's some totally unsolicited advice from a stranger on the internet who can empathize with your situation. The strategies I use, maybe they're useful maybe worthless:

Never pay full price for any depreciating asset - b-stock (open box/customer return, refurb, blemished) or closeout pricing only. That way I can sell for minimal loss if it doesn't work out. In a way, this eliminates 90% of my "options" because I don't see full price as an option.

Get the cheapest option of something that interests you, and think critically "Do I want more of <this>?" For example, for my friends who aren't in this hobby I explain the difference between JBL/Revel and Kef/Genelec as 'wide' vs 'deep'. Almost anyone reading this knows that's a dramatic oversimplification, but to decide which I preferred (spoiler: both) I got a set of LSR 305's (used) and Kali IN-8v1 (open box) and lived with them for some time before stepping up price-wise.

Don't be afraid of return periods. I always get someone on the phone, confirm my expectations, if I move ahead I have the invoice emailed to me and then reply confirming the return policy. An aggressive sales rep might give you hassle, at which point I usually just defer to the email so I don't have to listen to their insipid whining when I could be listening to Chubby and the Gang.

Last, and I have no idea what options exist for this outside the USA, 0% loans if you're pretty confident but not totally confident about a selection. Do not get suckered into a higher overall price just to land 0%! Just as important, don't do it if you aren't able to pay it off by the day such offer expires because the millisecond that rolls over, your selection just became x% (23% is what I tend to see) more than it would have been outright. In the USA, such deals can be anywhere from 6-24 months; you'll know within 3 months if it's the right choice, leaving you with at least 3 months to sell.

With that little list of rules, I've maybe lost 5-10% at most, while gaining a lot more confidence in my perceived vs. actual preferences around gear. Even then, 1/3 of that was on shipping/donations for amir and Erin to test a few submissions. Anyways, the KH420 sure is great... My take vs. 8361: here in USA it looks like KH420 price just went up to $5200/ea, so unfortunately I'd have to lean toward the 8361 simply because, for the moment, it's a more future proof option. Will be interesting to see what GLM 4.2 brings. I believe in other parts of the world, KH420 is quite a bit cheaper especially if VAT doesn't apply to you so decision wouldn't be as easy. Apologies for polluting the thread with these pontifications
Thanks for the comment, really appreciate it :)
 

Tangband

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Of course, less excursion for the driver which covers the midrange, less doppler effect hence less IMD.
View attachment 206449
The measurements shows less IMD distortion with the three way + subwoofer = a 4-way loudspeaker.

One can then conclude that loudspeakers with 4 crossoverpoints and 4 drivers in each channel theoreticaly have much better ability to be without compromises, compared to 2 or 3 way loudspeakers. If all the drivers are of good quality.

The reason a 4-way loudspeaker of good quality sounds better than a 2-way at higher volume, is each driver playing less frequencies, with less IMD distortion.

222D7D2F-E688-4BC1-B8F9-D75916B0A407.png
 

HarmonicTHD

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The only "fact" is every beryllium tweeter i heard sounded great to me
I really don't think Focal or any brand would bother with beryllium if it had 0 impact on the sound because it's very expensive and complicated to manufacture.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
So no facts…. subjective preference of a material. Fair enough. I like Diet Coke, others might not… so.


It is the engineering what makes the difference and the measurable result what counts. Plenty of proof that the use of exotic materials, technologies etc does not guarantee good results and more often than not are used by marketing to differentiate the product.

As you see from the published results in the forum, plenty of manufacturers even exceed the results of beryllium (Focal) by making different engineering choices (just take the Genelec, the Neumanns or the KEFs which are currently discussed here).
 

Inner Space

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If y’all had to choose, would you select ls60’s or kh420’s?
Depends what for. I saw on the other thread you're thinking of swapping out your active ATCs - in which case the KH420s would be in the same ballpark, and maybe even a sideways or downward move, depending on which ATCs you're using right now. With huge respect to KEF, the LS60s are domestic products heavily biased toward lifestyle convenience, and stand no chance at all of equalling either ATC or Neumann for SPLs, durability, longevity or serviceability. Apples and oranges, really.
 

Tangband

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If y’all had to choose, would you select ls60’s or kh420’s?
Interesting question. Both loudspeakers are probably very good .
My wote would go to kh420 because:

The baffle is wider on kh420 - I see this as an advantage with less diffraction and no need for baffle step compensation.
The Kef ls60 is a beautiful looking loudspeaker but I guess you ment only sound quality?:)
 
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