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Can you choose a great speaker by its frequency response?

TheBatsEar

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While we know there is more to consider, on-axis linearity is generally considered to be a key metric.
You meant to say smooth directivity there, mate. FR can be bent to your will using math. Directivity is what it is.

I think i would prefer number 2 based on this very limited data. Seems to be doing well in the important range, say 80 to 6kHz. For full on base you probably would need a sub, but it could do without in a smaller room or near field.

Could this be a KEF koaxial driver?
Spinning_thinking_emoji_2.gif
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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You meant to say smooth directivity there, mate. FR can be bent to your will using math. Directivity is what it is.

I think i would prefer number 2 based on this very limited data. Seems to be doing well in the important range, say 80 to 6kHz. For full on base you probably would need a sub, but it could do without in a smaller room or near field.

Could this be a KEF koaxial driver?
View attachment 205364
Maybe next time will try LW or DI or something else. Was trying to keep it simple for this round. I and others have threads to discuss meaningful measurements, so will not belabor here. :)
 

Geert

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As mentioned, the intent was to obscure (somewhat)

I understand the idea, but on the other hand we also know our hearing doesn't have the frequency resolution you used. The first thing I would do when someone present me graphs like this is apply psychoacoustic or ERB smoothing. Don't think this was intended as an exercise on how well people can picture an average response in there head.

But if you want me to give it a try, I guess speaker 1 is the flattest and most extended response, although the bass might be a bit shelved down (which can be compensated by boundary effect).
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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I understand the idea, but on the other hand we also know our hearing doesn't have the frequency resolution you used. The first thing I would do when someone present me graphs like this is apply psychoacoustic or ERB smoothing. Don't think this was intended as an exercise on how well people can picture an average response in their head.

But if you want me to give it a try, I guess speaker 1 is the flattest and most extended response, although the bass might be a bit shelved down (which can be compensated by boundary effect).

Yes, acknowledge might have been better to consider how to "obscure" more usefully.

Appreciate the constructive advice! :)
 

AwesomeSauce2015

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Will you be revealing which speakers generated which plots?
I like the overall trends in response of speaker 2, but speaker 1 has a lot more LF and would probably win in terms of my preference.
Speaker 3 looks off to me.

This all goes out the window if directivity is terrible, or if speaker 2 has a rear bass port, as these are on-axis measurements.
 

DWPress

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I'll go for #1 providing the rest is readily taken care of with some EQ. Always better to have the base extension in the same box in my mind.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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Ok, last call before I reveal the speakers.

But before I do, for the sake of full disclosure, I have to issue a correction. I have heard speaker #3. For that matter, due to a mix-up, it was not the speaker I intended to use. Here is the original one I intended to use...

Speaker #4

1652054665035.png


At this point, am including as I do not think it changes the overall results in a major way, but it has a unique design aspect versus the other three.

I suspect you may find it interesting as well....
 

Axo1989

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That one is a bit smoother than the others, FR-wise. The gradual LF roll-off may indicate reasonable extension beyond the crop (true for the others also) that translates to adequate LF in-room. We are still looking at the ±3 dB band, roughly. As I'd likely run Sonarworks regardless, other factors may be persuasive.

four speaker stretch.jpeg
 

AwesomeSauce2015

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I'd still probably go with #1 because bass is everything.
However, if the polars and dynamics were lacking in it, than that would be bad.
So I guess my answer to the thread's main question, "Can I choose a good speaker by its FR?", is no, I cannot. I rely on dynamic compression measurements to verify that the speaker will get loud enough, and the polars to ensure I can EQ it to sound good. The on-axis FR is actually pretty irrelevant to me, as long as it's reasonably clean and shows decent bass power / extension.

I have heard many speakers that measure very well (KEF Blade 2, R11, Reference 1), but then went to the showroom next door (objectively worse setup, no room treatment, bad speaker placement), with the JBL HDI 3600 or 3800 (I can't remember) + dual 12" HDI subs (And one of their AV-Processors). The JBL setup won subjectively in basically every song I had. More bass (obviously), cleaner, and it just was more fun to listen to.

On-axis FR will tell you that the R11 or Blade 2 is much better than the JBL speakers, except for the dual subs winning the bass contest. However, the KEF systems simply lacked the effortless-ness and lifelike sound that the JBL system had. That, I believe, was due to the dynamic capabilities of the JBL system, and maybe also the room EQ at play... JBL's HDI series uses a horn tweeter, and KEF uses a dome. Big difference IMO.
 

komhst

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All the curves look horrible, but I would choose speaker 2. It has the most consistent response in the bass region. Speaker 1 will for sure sound anemic and brittle, speaker 3 is all over the place.

Speaker 2 needs a sub, but I don't mind.
If you don't know the scaling of the vertical axis you can't say if the curves are horrible or great. All you can say is by comparing the three curves which one of them is better. You can't compare them to any other if you don't know the Y axis.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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Now for the big moment!

Here is a plot of the original 3 speakers with the typical scaling restored:

1652088622791.png


Realize the fonts are rather small, so here are the revealed speakers in list form:
  1. The Genelec 8361B (speaker #1) is the blue trace
  2. The Revel F228Be is speaker #2 and is the green trace
  3. The GR Research X-LS Encore is speaker #3 (red trace)
Here is another plot with the 3 speakers as I originally intended:
1652092576173.png


So here I replaced the GR speaker with the KEF R3 (purple trace).

Here is a summary of the votes for the better speaker based on the FR plots:
  • Speaker #1 (Genelec) had the most votes at 20
  • Speaker #2 (Revel) came in second with 6 votes
  • Speaker #3 (GR) had zero votes
  • Speaker #4 (KEF) was a bonus and goes unranked (sorry, my fault)
  • There were 5 voters who abstained (mainly claiming the FR data was insufficient to judge)
If I had voted, based on the plots, I agree with the overall sentiment about the Genelec being flattest. Due to other influences, it would not be a speaker I would purchase, but I understand why a lot of people like it. So, is it the better speaker? Some argued that they would not chose one speaker over another simply based on the on-axis FR. While I agree, it may be all we get sometimes and even then, it is a stated spec versus a visual presentation.

There may be some takeaways, but that was not my purpose here. As I mentioned, I have another thread for that and welcome the discourse. Am more interested in your responses now that you know the speakers that were used.

Thanks for participating!

Rick
 
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HarmonicTHD

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Now for the big moment!

Here is a plot of the original 3 speakers with the typical scaling restored:

View attachment 205538

Realize the fonts are rather small, so here are the revealed speakers in list form:
  1. The Genelec 8361B (speaker #1) is the blue trace
  2. The Revel F228Be is speaker #2 and is the green trace
  3. The GR Research X-LS Encore is speaker #3 (red trace)
Here is another plot with the 3 speakers as I originally intended:
View attachment 205539

So here I replaced the GR speaker with the KEF R3 (purple trace).

Here is a summary of the votes for the better speaker based on the FR plots:
  • Speaker #1 (Genelec) had the most votes at 20
  • Speaker #2 (Revel) came in second with 6 votes
  • Speaker #3 (GR) had zero votes
  • Speaker #4 (KEF) was a bonus and goes unranked (sorry, my fault)
  • There were 5 voters who abstained (mainly claiming the FR data was insufficient to judge)
If I had voted, based on the plots, I agree with the overall sentiment about the Genelec being flattest. Due to other influences, it would not be a speaker I would purchase, but I understand why a lot of people like it. So, is it the better speaker? Some argued that they could not chose one speaker over another simply based on the on-axis FR. While I agree, it may be all we get sometimes and even then, it is a stated spec versus a visual presentation.

There may be some takeaways, but that was not my purpose here. As I mentioned, I have another thread for that and welcome the discourse. Am more interested in your responses now that you know the speakers that were used here.

Thanks for participating!

Rick
Fantastic. I won (too), I picked the Genelec. Also relieved I didn’t pick a dud. :);)

Plenty of threads though, comparing the various differences among the speakers.

Looking forward to the next round. Thx.
 
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Enkay25

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I miss the dateline, but knew speaker 1 will be what I like. The bass ………
 

Eetu

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I'm glad I picked the Genelec too.

While I agree that a single axis is insufficient data (and you could EQ any speaker to be flatter than the 8361A) I would say a flat on-axis is an indicator that the speaker designer cares about measurements and likely has paid attention to other aspects as well.
 

Cote Dazur

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So let's see how well members can discern speakers based on it...
Excellent post and turn up that most if not all criticize how the curves are shown but no one knows what the best speaker is just from looking at the curve.
Of course if those curve would be shown in a "objective " review, we would get pages after pages of illuminated comments on how the speaker subjectively sound based on what the "measurements" curve are "showing", most comments from people that have never need exposed to the speakers.
ASR is just such a fun forum to read.
 
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