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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 29 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 488 93.5%

  • Total voters
    522

dfuller

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thanks for test.
result's for Step responce - speakers is not phase-linear ?
Nope - not that it matters, really.

Which is more common in studios in general Genelec or Neumann?
I see Genelecs all over post houses, and basically nowhere else. Neumanns get a lot more use in music-priority spaces.

There are three use cases in the pro world - tracking, mixing, mastering - and any DSP that introduces latency (i.e. delays to fix phase between drivers or to integrate subwoofers) isn't great for tracking, because the tiny sound-in sound-out delay can produce a kind of seasick feeling in the operator, which gets unpleasant and fatiguing very fast. So the desire not to buy separate set-ups for separate use cases introduces a slight initial bias against DSP-dependent units or combos.

But that doesn't matter for mixing and mastering, where perceived see-through clarity is king, and the very slight tentative consensus against the Genelec Ones comes from a perceived cloudy vagueness in the bass and mid-bass. Most people's intuitive reasoning blames the bass drivers exciting the back of the large waveguide plate and introducing re-radiation.

Which leaves the KH420 as a big, capable, straightforward proposition, with excellent clarity and no perceived deficiencies.

Certainly money is irrelevant - after deductibility as business expenses, depreciation, write-downs, etc, all speakers end up costing very little.

All that said, I acknowledge that pro opinions can be just as nuts as anyone else's. Personally I hate all loudspeakers - all are hideously incapable of reproducing live sound. We fool ourselves if we think otherwise.
I wonder if this has to do with Genelec's group delay characteristics, because I've noticed this with other Genelecs as well. The KH420 has super low GD for a ported design (going by Neumann's data, which we know to be accurate) - under 1 cycle all the way down to 20hz.
KH420_Group_Delay_510.gif


Compare that to the 8361... Still excellent, but considerably higher.
8361A_Extended_Phase_Linearity_OFF_GD.png
 
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DJBonoBobo

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tifune

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One more thing : The Neuman can be just propped on any flat surface, be it a stand, a table or a stool , albeit a cryogenically treated wood stool such as the one @amirm use :D... Can the same be done with Genelec "The One"... any model? Don't they require special footing? OR some other accessories?
It's good to see Neumann speakers eliciting so much response. They deserve their lofty status. Now I'd like to see a review of the famed Geithain RL801K...

"require" probably needs some definition around it. If you ask those like ISOacoustics then yes you 'require' stands to get good sound. I suspect, in the grand scheme of things (reflections, room modes, etc) comparatively most would be fine with yoga blocks or even those cheap foam Auralex pads. That said, all Genelecs that I've seen/owned include an iso-pod that can tilt +/- maybe 20 degrees max. so, even if required, you're not left hanging. The speakers themselves also have a threaded insert that can screw directly into a mic/boom stand depending how spartan you want to be, and there's a plate you can get for the iso-pod so you can maintain that tilt while attached to a mic/boom. Attached is my one of my surrounds w/ plate and "top surround" without (angle not perfect but honestly I have to turn it up +10dB to even realize it's doing anything at all)

The other side of the coin, I suppose, is at these price points it's hard to see an extra $100-200 for 'proper' stands being a dealbreaker
 

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Tangband

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Here is a distortion comparison with another good, passive loudspeaker, the Revel f228be . The cost for this speaker is 5000 dollars each.
As one can se, the Neumann FH420 is slightly overall better at both 86 dB and 96 dB . The frequency response is about even.


Below, an 8 times cheaper but class leading in low distortion small monitor - the Genelec 8030C.
There is not much difference in distortion between these three loudspeakers at 86 dB .

BC90A20C-7A62-40DA-B37B-24E5CA2CAAA3.png
718CC9CF-2A07-4648-8F0B-D5F8237DCE4B.png
2DCD06A6-96EC-4943-A7B7-E2F986542EEA.png
 
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test1223

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Sure, but by how much, and not the least: why?

It could only be the direct sound, as the diffuse in-room response would be the same., once equalised.

Does a dB here or there actually matter? The difference may be accessible to a well trained critical listener and evaluator of stereo equipment. But would such a tiny bit make or destroy a recording of music as an art form? Especially as nearly all people enjoy their preferred entertainment without a clue what sound is ...
If you did proper equalisation and compare similar designs the differences are smaller. Equalisation is very powerful. With near field speakers and similar designs you can transform a lot of speaker to sound almost alike. With greater distance even with the right speaker for the listening distance the differences increase. The interaction with the room it more important here.

It is very helpful to play around with two speakers, measurements and equalisation. The differences of similar designs with different chassis is a lot smaller than most people would guess.

But the 8361 and kh420 are not very similar designs.
 

Tangband

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"require" probably needs some definition around it. If you ask those like ISOacoustics then yes you 'require' stands to get good sound. I suspect, in the grand scheme of things (reflections, room modes, etc) comparatively most would be fine with yoga blocks or even those cheap foam Auralex pads. That said, all Genelecs that I've seen/owned include an iso-pod that can tilt +/- maybe 20 degrees max. so, even if required, you're not left hanging. The speakers themselves also have a threaded insert that can screw directly into a mic/boom stand depending how spartan you want to be, and there's a plate you can get for the iso-pod so you can maintain that tilt while attached to a mic/boom. Attached is my one of my surrounds w/ plate and "top surround" without (angle not perfect but honestly I have to turn it up +10dB to even realize it's doing anything at all)

The other side of the coin, I suppose, is at these price points it's hard to see an extra $100-200 for 'proper' stands being a dealbreaker
I recommend all readers to buy a proper stand with your loudspeakers. Dont put them on a bench or a shelf - the sound will be much worse and you can see it in the measurements, with reflections all over the place. With a stand, you can also finetune the correct placement of the loudspeakers. This alone makes a big difference .

I have compared the Norstone stylum 2 ( 120 dollars ) with Custom design ( 350 dollars ) with my Genelec 8340 and the sound, in this case, gets better with the more expensive stand. I bought the Custom design. The Norstone stylum 2 is still wastly better than putting the speakers on a bench or a chair.
 

sarumbear

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Also the B&W in Abby Road is not the standard one that you can buy, the crossover is tweaked a lot to fit the needs of Abby Road (less bright, so flatter in response).
Can you tell us your source?
 

Waxx

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Can you tell us your source?
It was extensive discussed a few years ago at gearslutz, a forum for studio people. I don't find the link now.

And Abby Road has a long history of modding most of their gear, or building it themselves. It is the old EMI studio, build in 1929, where in their legendaric times the crew of electronic engineers was as big as the crew of audio engineers. And a lot of gear build there became legendaric like the EMI REDD.51 and TG mixing consoles that are still seen as some of the best ever made.
 

sarumbear

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It was extensive discussed a few years ago at gearslutz, a forum for studio people. I don't find the link now.
No Abbey Road employee would talk about their studio. They are not allowed.
And Abby Road has a long history of modding most of their gear, or building it themselves. It is the old EMI studio, build in 1929, where in their legendaric times the crew of electronic engineers was as big as the crew of audio engineers. And a lot of gear build there became legendaric like the EMI REDD.51 and TG mixing consoles that are still seen as some of the best ever made.
Check my resume.
 

pseudoid

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What's up with the stand below the speaker? [post#56]
Observing the impressive low-frequency extension of this Neuman [pronounced 'noyman' or 'newman'?] I wanted to ask if Klippel results were impacted but I was too chicken-sh*ts, as the speaker is said to weigh near 80 pounds....
One more thing : The Neuman can be just propped on any flat surface, be it a stand, a table or a stool , albeit a cryogenically treated wood stool such as the one @amirm use :D...
I am not saying that there maybe a correlation (results<>stool) as I am flush with speakers for a while...
 

Vintage57

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DJBonoBobo

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Neuman [pronounced 'noyman' or 'newman'?]
Neumann is pronounced "noymun" ("mun" like in "munster" or like "mon" in "money").
 

ahofer

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pseudoid

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ahofer

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sarumbear

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pseudoid

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What is the cabinet materiel?
I hope you have home casualty insurance, because I don't know if you can repair it and may have incurred structural damage that glue is not going to help (maybe even few dislodged, inside hardware)...:confused:
 

DJBonoBobo

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The CEO of PSI Audio also thinks MDF is one of the best materials (he says, only better materials are cement or ceramic or something like that and plastic or aluminium are used if you need to produce large quantities). Maybe he is biased, because of course PSI uses MDF and not aluminium like their competitors - i don´t know, of course.

From 10:38

 

pseudoid

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I dunno! In this day and age of "engineered" materials, MDF is an old but trusted lark, isn't?
The heavy resin-coating speaks something but I don't know what language...
Carbon-Fiber? Carbon-Graphite? Nano(tube)-particles? Pixie Dust?
Surely, Shirley!:)

EDIT[add]: The question to the asker would be "how long of a dive did the speaker take?" IP67?
 
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