Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[FeddyLost]

Why subwoofers from company like Neumann, Genelec, or Adam are so expensive?

Usually for compatibility, expected reliability, pack of studio features like filtered output (almost never seen this in hi-fi subs) and low production volume (typical hi-fi subs are much more often than studio subs).

so it's more propably, that Neumann KH 420 will sound better with Neumann KH 870 versus "typical" subwoofers?

It heavily depends on exact subwoofer that you will use and use case...
Pro subwoofer "as is" not always better than "hi-fi" for same price.

The reality is that this speaker is neither designed for nor marketed for consumer use.

Exactly. But can be used at home as any speaker including PA...
I knew a guy with pair of 420s+810s for heavy metal in 150+ cu.m. room.
He said that it's the best compromise between hi-fi quality and live concert experience for "still sane price".

 

[Tangband]

So, that's subwoofers are more compatible with speakers from the same company vs subwoofers like Rythmik, JTR, and another?
I ask, because someone on this forum was writing that pro subwoofers are too expensive for the performance offered - or something like this.

I would say that the price on those more expensive subwoofers from Genelec, Adam or Neumann often reflects the soundquality. There are pro-subs costing much less from other brands that sounds and measures really bad.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Usually for compatibility, expected reliability, pack of studio features like filtered output (almost never seen this in hi-fi subs) and low production volume (typical hi-fi subs are much more often than studio subs).
….

… and let me add Quality assurance for consistent performance according to the published specs and an excellent customer service for their mainly prosumer / pro target customers … at least here in Europe.

 

[jhaider]

Hello All,

Why is it that the amplifiers on these powered speakers get a pass?

If these amplifiers were separate we would be wondering if they were under powered or if the SINAD were to high

Each speaker has ~550W of built in power (295W woofer, 130W ea. mid and tweeter. And each is bandwidth limited so power is allocated more efficiently, passive losses aren’t a thing, and there is much less need for “perfect” full range performance for each. So “underpowered” isn’t a reasonable argument. From Amir’s testing the distortion profile of the system (processing + amps + drivers) if shown and he observed no hiss close to the tweeter. So there’s your SINAD.

But to your broader point, I agree the importance of basic audio electronics generally is massively overweighted here. Good enough is good enough. I guess there’s some merit to the argument that when you mix n’ match, as opposed to use an integrated device, performance margins in each separate box should be higher because they could interact weirdly. But in terms of components, speakers and signal processors (and analog source transducers, if any) are what matter and the rest is just whatever.

Seems like we should start testing speakers with a good enough integrated amplifier and stop giving the amplifier even a mention.

Thanks DT

Isn’t that what’s usually done?

 

[Frgirard]

… and let me add Quality assurance for consistent performance according to the published specs and an excellent customer service for their mainly prosumer / pro target customers … at least here in Europe.

Quality assurance: in 2016 some kh420 are sold with a mid flawed.
Listening, the defect was very audible.
1 the mid is not calibrated.
2 the speakers are not tested.
I bought a demo kh420 to be sure they are tested by the dealer and his clients

 

[Frgirard]

Each speaker has ~550W of built in power (295W woofer, 130W ea. mid and tweeter. And each is bandwidth limited so power is allocated more efficiently, passive losses aren’t a thing, and there is much less need for “perfect” full range performance for each. So “underpowered” isn’t a reasonable argument. From Amir’s testing the distortion profile of the system (processing + amps + drivers) if shown and he observed no hiss close to the tweeter. So there’s your SINAD.

But to your broader point, I agree the importance of basic audio electronics generally is massively overweighted here. Good enough is good enough. I guess there’s some merit to the argument that when you mix n’ match, as opposed to use an integrated device, performance margins in each separate box should be higher because they could interact weirdly. But in terms of components, speakers and signal processors (and analog source transducers, if any) are what matter and the rest is just whatever.



Isn’t that what’s usually done?

The sound of the power amp? Berhinger a500 is a universal high end power amp

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Quality assurance: in 2016 some kh420 are sold with a mid flawed.
Listening, the defect was very audible.
1 the mid is not calibrated.
2 the speakers are not tested.
I bought a demo kh420 to be sure they are tested by the dealer and his clients

Sorry to hear. Sh… happens with the best. I hope once found they rectified it quickly.

 

[DanTheMan]

Well, I was going to buy a house, but screw it. This will bring me joy.

 

[Tangband]

Each speaker has ~550W of built in power (295W woofer, 130W ea. mid and tweeter. And each is bandwidth limited so power is allocated more efficiently, passive losses aren’t a thing, and there is much less need for “perfect” full range performance for each. So “underpowered” isn’t a reasonable argument. From Amir’s testing the distortion profile of the system (processing + amps + drivers) if shown and he observed no hiss close to the tweeter. So there’s your SINAD.

But to your broader point, I agree the importance of basic audio electronics generally is massively overweighted here. Good enough is good enough. I guess there’s some merit to the argument that when you mix n’ match, as opposed to use an integrated device, performance margins in each separate box should be higher because they could interact weirdly. But in terms of components, speakers and signal processors (and analog source transducers, if any) are what matter and the rest is just whatever.



Isn’t that what’s usually done?

Genelec wrote in a white paper (if I remember correctly) that the amplifier distortion in midrange should be lower than 0,03% if the driver distortion is 0,3%.

This Neumann KH420 monitors are active constructions meaning they have a big technical advantage over passives in the EMF area, -they will play bass much better than most passive constructions because of this. The TDA 7293 power IC used is probably good enough to provide that active advantage.

 

[Pearljam5000]

So basically what material is this?

 

[F1308]

So basically what material is this? View attachment 203821

I guess one having the highest possible stiffness...
Wondering what is delaying graphene from appearing in Hi-Fi.

 

[Robbo99999]

Regarding distortion. Question is if it is audible or relevant at common listening levels and while also considering the dominance of room modes in the lower frequencies plus this:

Post in thread 'I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...n-speaker-preference-score.31454/post-1116099

Well it's an open debate about levels of distortion & how important a variable, merely I was curious if there were speakers that we've measured on here that can compare to the low distortion seen in some good measuring headphones in that regard....I don't readily remember one, it must be a lot easier to produce a low distortion headphone than it is to produce a low distortion speaker!

 

[F1308]

Well it's an open debate about levels of distortion & how important a variable, merely I was curious if there were speakers that we've measured on here that can compare to the low distortion seen in some good measuring headphones in that regard....I don't readily remember one, it must be a lot easier to produce a low distortion headphone than it is to produce a low distortion speaker!

I have a pair of TWS Bluetooth earphones by my side, $29.99
Fancy starting the test right away ?

 

[Robbo99999]

Wow, you need to get out some!

Find a Caterham owner, ask to borrow for 20 minutes and have possibly the most fun you can have on a road.

Yeah, but in the States they don't really have corners!

 

[Robbo99999]

I have a pair of TWS Bluetooth earphones by my side, $29.99
Fancy starting the test right away ?

How do you mean? I was just asking if we've ever measured a speaker on here that has low enough distortion to compare to good measuring headphones re the distortion variable. I don't think we've measured a speaker on here that can compare in distortion terms....I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just curious re the comparison.

 

[dfuller]

So basically what material is this? View attachment 203821

Some kind of composite.

 

[hmt]

The reality is that this speaker is neither designed for or marketed


The reality is that this speaker is neither designed for nor marketed for consumer use.

The basic sales pitch for this product is: "The KH 420 is designed for use as a mid-field or main monitor in stereo and multi-channel systems. It can be used in project, music, broadcast centers, and post production studios for tracking, mixing, and mastering."

You will not find any supplier suggesting it is sensible for domestic playback use.

If you look at professional reviews online, they say this speaker requires a lot of room treatment, which makes it a poor choice for a typical consumer set-up were that is not possible.

Neumann's own website says:
View attachment 203803
For a speaker this powerful, and expensive, I would expect in a typical domestic setting the listening position to be close to the limit or outside this specified working distance. Moreover, having these speakers at one end of a domestic room and the listening position near the other end is, but all accounts, going to be pretty terrible unless the room is well treated.

So, whilst this is clearly a superb studio monitor for professional use, for someone with a $10k+ budget and a nice big domestic listening room, this would seem to be a poor choice of speaker.

So there is good reason why they are not sold for consumer use and I did not see anyone online using them in a domestic setting.

So if you look at this review, for example, from a professional user near me (www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7M3A1FYucU), the Kii3 would be a much more sensible option and they are of course sold for domestic use.

With a large listening room, I would much prefer a speaker designed for domestic use (whether or not the FR-30) and I would expect it to perform better than a midfield monitor, even one with great measurements.

Plus this is dead ugly. Generally, domestic audio consumers pay for cosmetics because they don't want their houses invaded by horrible industrial products. There are horrible consumer products as well, but these give zero consideration to cosmetics, whilst the Kii 3 do.

Every speaker will sound terrible if the room is not treated. Speakers like the KH420 though will sound better than many Hifi Speakers because of its dispersion characteristics in a typical home environment.

 

[Frgirard]

Sorry to hear. Sh… happens with the best. I hope once found they rectified it quickly.

Since 2016 they did. The quality control is a marketing view. Have you seen the teardown of kh80 on this forum?
The best beyond the bests in measurements : yes.

 

[DWI]

The dichotomy pro/domestic is a myth.

Ugly ? It's an opinion as mine.

Something that exists cannot be a myth, and there are many successful speaker designers who design speakers differently for domestic and consumer use. Whether you think it is necessary is another matter.

The overwhelming weight of evidence is that speakers designed for consumer use do not look anything like these. If you honestly think these would be considered an attractive addition to a domestic environment, you’re not being honest with yourself.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Something that exists cannot be a myth, and there are many successful speaker designers who design speakers differently for domestic and consumer use. Whether you think it is necessary is another matter.

The overwhelming weight of evidence is that speakers designed for consumer use do not look anything like these. If you honestly think these would be considered an attractive addition to a domestic environment, you’re not being honest with yourself.

I think you are using the word “design” for styling rather than engineering design. I don’t see any reason why the designer would have a different objective but the stylist almost certainly will have (but maybe want to do something that compromises the performance)