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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 29 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 488 93.5%

  • Total voters
    522

HarmonicTHD

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Why choosing that option, rated at 6.2/7.6, instead of Genelc 8030C rated at 6.31/7.50 ?

For example. Room correction by strategically placing subs. More SPL. Less distortion at high levels. … plus differences in preference score only become significant at +-1 point.
 

noel_fs

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the best ive seen

i would bet the -0.8db on bass is done on purpose to compensate room acosutics
 

F1308

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The result in those measurements dont count the advantage of many drivers and crossover regions.
Meaning a 3-way loudspeaker will always play real music better than a two way loudspeaker if the quality of drivers and amplifiers are the same and everything is done in the right way .
Sorry, correct rating for Genelec 8030C is 6.31/8.5, not 6.31/7.5 as I wronly stated.
 

Waxx

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It was released in 2015 I think.

A little history of Neumann as we know it today:
Neumann was founded in 1928 making microphones and other recording equipment. The struggling company was bought by Sennheiser in 1991, who decided to restructure it from the ground up. The original Neumann never made studio monitors.
Those were made by Klein + Hummel who had been building active studio monitors since the 70s, another company Sennheiser bought in 2005 and incorporated into Neumann in 2010.
That‘s the reason you won‘t find any old Neumann studio monitors on the used market, and also why old Klein + Hummel models look so familiar. The predecessor to this KH 420 is the O410 that was released in 2007 or so.
It's actually a bit more complex. The original Neumann brand was founded by Georg Neumann in Berlin in 1928, but moved to Gefell (Thuringia, Germany) as Georg Neumann & Company Gefell during the second world war. They were making the infamous CMV 3 bottle mic (the Hitler microphone) with the M7 capsule. The factory in Berlin was destroyed during the war, but the one in Gefell remained untill the communists took it and renamed it Microtech Gefell (which as brand still exist and is on par with the top brands of microphones, only less known).

Georg Neumann started over in West Berlin with his second Neumann company after the war in 1949, working further on his old designs with the M7 capsule, but in new microphones like the infamous U47, but he aslo made measurement microphones, and sold his designs under the name Neumann and Telefunken. He used in the beginning the production plants of Siemens and AEG (the owners of the Telefunken brand) for the mass production before he had his own factories. That second Neumann company was sold to Senheiser in 1991, and merged with another Senheiser aquistion, Klein + Hummel in 2010.

Klein + Hummel are an audio electronics company based in Wedemark (formerly Ostfildern/Kemnat), Germany, that produce studio and sound reinforcement equipment. It was founded in 1945 by Walter Hummel, Horst Klein and Heinrich Brumm. The company was sold to Senheiser in 2005 and the brand name disappeared in 2010 when they were merged into Neumann. They were mainly famous for their studio monitors that are a longtime standard for classical music recordings in Europe. and were also used a lot by european broadcast companies untill today (under the Neumann brand).
 

abdo123

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Yes, but with the cheaper KH310 with 2 KH750 dsp- subwoofers theres gonna be two advantages:

1. Two KH310+ 2 KH750 dsp becomes a 4 way loudspeaker , meaning less frequencies for each driver to play. The result will be less IMD distortion with complex music , if the quality of the amplifiers and drivers are of the same high quality. A good 4 way loudspeaker has less compromises in the crossover regions than a good three way , if done right.:)

2. The Neumann subs have room-correction and thats a big advantage below 80 Hz , to compensate for the walls in the listening room. The KH420 dont have this.

3. The KH310 + 2 KH750 dsp might because of this have a better sound than two KH420.
One has to compare the sound quality carefully and with real music.

1) irrelevant really beyond 3-ways.

2) cool

3) it's also 1000$ more expensive, and does not play as loud as the KH420 above 200Hz.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Neumann Product Selection Guide provides a nice overview of speaker and sub combinations (except the prices ;-)) Although, they don’t have the KH750 DSP sub listed
1651395472784.jpeg
 

test1223

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I think it's worth to mention that Neumann's are less distorted than Genelec's(especially IMD is high on coaxial drivers) and Neumann's have more higher max SPL output. KH 420's have 120db max output around midrange and 110db in high treble. Coaxials tradeoff high SPL output/low IMD for smooth vertical directivity.

Genelec 8361's distortion: View attachment 203678

As a proud KH 420 owner, I'm glad to see they perform extremely good.
Genelec 8361 provide better HD distortion performance at 106 dB since the important frequency band is from 1kHz to 2kHz. The capability to hear hd distortion is way better in this band than in all other frequency bands. I think both speakers are near the hd threshold of hearing anyway.

Intermodulation distortion wasn't measured here so there is no indication which speaker did a better performance. Since a midrange speakers at about 500Hz does hardly move at all, the IMD of both speakers are probably also very low.

There is also one advantage of the genelec ones which isn't mentioned so often: the perfect surface of the front baffle which didn't cause any diffraction. If you have any standard speaker you got secondary sound sources by the chassis and waveguides of the other drivers. It is very hard to avoid these effects. Very big waveguide speakers like the jbl m2 are able to push the diffraction out of the important frequency bands. But yes everything is a compromise.
 

F1308

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Neumann Product Selection Guide provides a nice overview of speaker and sub combinations (except the prices ;-)) Although, they don’t have the KH750 DSP sub listed View attachment 203726
Cheeses....
Thinking 2.1 was enough but anyway went 2.2 ?
Here comes Neumann recommending 2.4, althoug only and only just for high-performance !!!!

And it is not 4 x KH750, but 4 x KH810...!!!!
 

F1308

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...and were also used a lot by european broadcast companies untill today (under the Neumann brand).
I think perhaps that is the real reason to have them...
Once used for the mix it goes without saying that they will play at home what was placed in the recording without any further hassle.
 

Haskil

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It was released in 2015 I think.

A little history of Neumann as we know it today:
Neumann was founded in 1928 making microphones and other recording equipment. The struggling company was bought by Sennheiser in 1991, who decided to restructure it from the ground up. The original Neumann never made studio monitors.
Those were made by Klein + Hummel who had been building active studio monitors since the 70s, another company Sennheiser bought in 2005 and incorporated into Neumann in 2010.
That‘s the reason you won‘t find any old Neumann studio monitors on the used market, and also why old Klein + Hummel models look so familiar. The predecessor to this KH 420 is the O410 that was released in 2007 or so.
My father had a pairs of Klein + Hummel older than the 70s = with a tube amplifier inside !
 

Pearljam5000

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KH420 advantages:
- lower IMD
- spooky soft dome midrange thing
- slightly lower distortion above the bass region at very loud SPL
- not bloody hideous
- easy to soffit mount

8361 advantages:
- smaller
- spooky coaxial imaging thing
- better vertical off-axis behavior (though I can't imagine this matters in their actual proper usage)
Which one would you buy?
 

BDWoody

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Why is it that the amplifiers on these powered speakers get a pass?

Active speakers are sold as a package, so are measured as a package. Those with digital inputs don't have their DACs measured separately either.

Are you suggesting that Amir break into these and then remove/isolate the amp to test separately? Then splice in an integrated amp to test the drivers?

You can't (easily at least) swap them out, so it isn't really relevant other than how it performs in an overall sense, which is what gets evaluated here.

I agree it would be interesting to see each separate element tested, but it won't reveal much useful info you aren't already getting.
 

Haskil

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Fantastic ! 8000 euros for the two, but the price of hifi passive speaker of great quality is more expansive... and certainly not so good... and this Neumann have à lot of possibility for a good integration in the room...

Genelec 8361 have more for the same price with GLM.
But I Think Neumann have also a similar product
https://en-de.neumann.com/ma-1

Focal have a similar model https://www.focal.com/france/pro-audio/enceintes-de-monitoring/sm6/enceintes-de-monitoring/trio11-be a little less expansive. My be a test if Focal send to Amir ?
 

sibi1865

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Although the KH 420 is not a match to the KH 750 DSP's SPL, they can be hooked up to the 750 to use its DSP capabilities. Is there a reason why Neumann could not produce an external box of tricks, or does the DSP have to be in-built into the monitor/sub? For those with the means, the KH 420 can be flush mounted, and the amplifiers removed and used remotely from the monitor. Very nice to see this review!
 

Tangband

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1) irrelevant really beyond 3-ways.

2) cool

3) it's also 1000$ more expensive, and does not play as loud as the KH420 above 200Hz.
Dont agree on point 1.
A 10 inch driver crossing to a 3 inch midrange is a bigger compromise in the 800 Hz area than a 8 inch driver crossing to a 3 inch driver.
A 12 inch subwoofer crossing to a 8 inch midbass, crossing to a 3 inch midrange and 0,75 inch tweeter is a much better choice if you want both low distortion , and high spl from 20-20000 Hz.
 

Jon AA

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View attachment 203683
M2's max output vs frequency

Neumann KH 420's output vs frequency

View attachment 203684

Obviously M2's have higher bass output. (duh, bigger drivers) 420's have higher 5khz+ output which is a bit surprising for me. I was expecting higher output from compression drivers compared to same sized dome tweeters. Probably, M2's compression drivers are EQ'd to compensate their roll off.

Yeah, that's a bit of wishful thinking. If the M2 had audible distortion over 110 dB on the top end, it would fail miserably at its only real reason for existing. Given its wide acceptance and admiration in the industry, this does not seem to be the case.

Don't get me wrong, the KH420 looks like an absolutely fantastic speaker to me. But, it's usable output is <106 dB at 1 meter. The M2 is in an entirely different zip code. As Neumann recommends, fantastic for listening up to 9 ft. At double that distance or more, you'll want the M2.
 

Digby

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Sorry, correct rating for Genelec 8030C is 6.31/8.5, not 6.31/7.5 as I wronly stated.
Because these numbers, especially when in the fractions, doesn't mean that you can grade speakers better or worse on this number alone.

There is no way a 8030C, subwoofer/s or not, sounds the same as a 3 way with 8" or 10" bass drivers + subs - just no way.
 

Ra1zel

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hard membranes are more "revealing" than soft ones.
What.

If these amplifiers were separate we would be wondering if they were under powered
You have 610W per speaker here, you consider 610W per channel amps underpowered? I guess you only use Crown amps and 2kW hypex modules.
 

o7_brother

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Why choosing that option, rated at 6.2/7.6, instead of Genelc 8030C rated at 6.31/7.50 ?
Edit: 6.31/8.5. Sorry...

It's important that you understand what those numbers DON'T tell you.

That number quantifies how flat the speaker measures -in a vacuum, which is a useful metric for sure, but you also have to think of the real-world scenario. There is basically no difference between 6.2 and 6.31 in practice, especially after you put the speakers in a real room and the response becomes much more "wiggly" as you go lower in frequency. That score is not accurate enough for us to care about these little decimal differences (they are both very good in this regard). If you see a speaker ranked at 6.2, and another ranked at 3.5, that's a large enough difference to be very significant.

Secondly, that number doesn't take into account maximum output and distortion. The Genelec 8030C is a smaller speaker, with a little woofer and tweeter, that's it. It can only play so loud. If you want speakers for a large room, the little Genelec won't be able to play loud enough for that space, compared to the larger KH310, with its much larger woofer and dedicated midrange driver. Of course, subwoofers can always help, but the 5-inch woofer of the 8030 would still be responsible for the entire range above the subwoofer and bellow the tweeter crossover, something like 80-3000 Hz. In the case of the KH310, because it has more drivers, each one is responsible for a smaller frequency range, which helps the speaker play louder and with less distortion.

Lastly, the score doesn't take into account how wide or narrow the directivity is. Not the main issue in this case, but you should be aware of it.
 

Tangband

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Because these numbers, especially when in the fractions, doesn't mean that you can grade speakers better or worse on this number alone.

There is no way a 8030C, subwoofer/s or not, sounds the same as a 3 way with 8" or 10" bass drivers + subs - just no way.
This is true, but only if the 3 way loudspeaker is a very good one . A bad average passive 3-way loudspeaker in the 400 dollar area will perform much worse than Genelec 8030c , soundwise .
I havent found a better sounding loudspeaker than 8030c for 1000 dollars /pair, if you dont demand 20-20000 Hz reproduction, or if you dont want to play really loud.

My opinion - for highend performance with high SPL, and 20-20000 Hz response, - a three way active loudspeaker is still a compromise , a four way is not .
 
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