Marantz SACD 30n Measurements (SACD Player, DAC & Streamer)

[srkbear]

…aaaaand then there’s this, a steal at $27,500

151 MK2 - Burmester

Herausragende Qualität und unglaublich schnelle Datenverarbeitung beschreiben das 151 MK2 Musiccenter am besten. Als Teil der Burmester Top Line verwaltet dieses High-End Multitalent Ihre Musikbibliothek, verbindet Sie mit Internetradio oder spielt Musik direkt von einem USB-Stick.

www.burmester.de

 

[MacCali]

Been searching for a quality cd player that doesn't destroy the bank. Not certain to buy this or a transport, not even sure what measurements are quality for a transport.. o.o

 

[srkbear]

Been searching for a quality cd player that doesn't destroy the bank. Not certain to buy this or a transport, not even sure what measurements are quality for a transport.. o.o

If you already have a DAC you’re happy with, the Sony X800M2 ($279 at Best Buy) plays CDs, SACDs and Blu Ray audio and does the job just fine, and if you get the HDMI audio extractor below, you can output Blu Ray audio at 96 kHz, and the Sony’s DSEE engine will upsample Red Book CDs to 88.2 and SACDs to 174.6, via Coax. It’s what I use and it sounds great (to my ears).

Much cheaper, and since this is a digital signal being transmitted prior to any DA conversion, I’m awfully dubious about whether paying more is likely to significantly affect the end result. There’s all sorts of talk on “audiophile” forums about the “precision” of high-priced BD-ROM stabilizers and optical laser classes and I say the more esoteric and complicated the product literature is, the more I feel like I’m getting sold up a river…


Kanex Pro HDMI Audio De-Embedder with 3D Support, 2-Channel, HDCP Compliant, Full HD 1080p (HAECOAX) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009KAU0WO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_QWEBM1PEPNTZG76Y0N6J

 

[VintageFlanker]

Why use it and not REW, which is more common (and more readable) ?

My thought is it is neither, honestly. I just needed a reminder "why": It is a pain in the *ss to use with my laptop.

Have no clue what the heck is going on with upper harmonics, but I assume setting is surely "wrong". And that is the issue : What is the "right" setting in REW to display 1Khz sine THD, to begin with?
Whatever its accurateness, it does not make a lot of sense to me, publishing something sounding like "tweak everything as you please to get whatever results you want". I know I'm wrong, but then someone tells me what parameter I should have used... RMAA certainly lacks standards, but at least it is standardized for itself: You get apples to apples comparison between every DUTs with the same conditions (assuming you pay enough attention to repeatability)

Here is the 0dBFS from RMAA, BTW:

	Left​	Right​
THD, %	0.00028​	0.00032​
THD + Noise, %	0.00043​	0.00046​
THD + Noise (A-weighted), %	0.00047​	0.00052​

1Khz sine from Multitone:

For a home-made DAC, Amir's typically most discriminant test is the IMD SMPTE vs level test.
Could you run this one ?

Multitone can run SMPTE Vs Level sweeps. Here is the SACD 30n:

I would not rely on it, tho, since I have no references results for other DACs. I will check one or two others later and see what I get.

Can you show multitone out to 96kHz, since you used 192k signal already?

Especially since this is upsampling everything to DSD256, it would be nice to see the out of band results.

 

[Music1969]

My thought is it is neither, honestly. I just needed a reminder "why": It is a pain in the *ss to use with my laptop.View attachment 203626View attachment 203627
Have no clue what the heck is going on with upper harmonics, but I assume setting is surely "wrong". And that is the issue : What is the "right" setting in REW to display 1Khz sine THD, to begin with?
Whatever its accurateness, it does not make a lot of sense to me, publishing something sounding like "tweak everything as you please to get whatever results you want". I know I'm wrong, but then someone tells me what parameter I should have used... RMAA certainly lacks standards, but at least it is standardized for itself: You get apples to apples comparison between every DUTs with the same conditions (assuming you pay enough attention to repeatability)

Here is the 0dBFS from RMAA, BTW:View attachment 203623

	Left​	Right​
THD, %	0.00028​	0.00032​
THD + Noise, %	0.00043​	0.00046​
THD + Noise (A-weighted), %	0.00047​	0.00052​

1Khz sine from Multitone:View attachment 203493

Multitone can run SMPTE Vs Level sweeps. Here is the SACD 30n:View attachment 203635
I would not rely on it, tho, since I have no references results for other DACs. I will check one or two others later and see what I get.

View attachment 203409

Thanks! That's a clean multitone !

 

[Rja4000]

"tweak everything as you please to get whatever results you want"

Well

First, you need to properly calibrate the output.
If you want to compare figures together, you need to define a (somehow arbitraty) level you want to compare figures at.
Amir selected 4Vrms for balanced (2Vrms for unbalanced)

In REW, to measure a DAC, you need to set the output level to this level.
One of the benefits of the AP hardware is that it includes a Digital Multi Meter with the Analyzer.
That's not the case of your ADC, of course, and given its low Input impedance, voltage may vary, so you'll have to measure using a (true RMS) DMM.

Then you calibrate level in REW
As can be seen below, here I calibrated REW for 0dBFS = 6,799Vrms for my RME ADI-2 Pro fs R @19dBu output range, balanced.
After that, I may directly dial in the Voltage I want to test at (Here 4Vrms)

And then the resulting measurement

Note that I usually select dB for distortion display, rather than %
Also note important settings: Limit strictly frequency from 20Hz to 20kHz
Window function is here set to Dolph-Chebyshev, which is supposed to be closest to AP's proprietary window function.
But other functions, like Blackmann-Harris 7 or Kaiser 8, work too.

Good news is that now I can reproduce the same measurement with other softwares:

ARTA

or, my favorite, Virtins Multi-Instrument Pro
(It's my favorite because it's widely controlable through a .Net application, allowing similar functionalities than the APx 500 scripting available with Audio Precision, for a fraction (<1%) of the price)

 

[Rja4000]

Multitone can run SMPTE Vs Level sweeps. Here is the SACD 30n:

I would not rely on it, tho, since I have no references results for other DACs. I will check one or two others later and see what I get.

I gave it a try on my side:
Here is the IMD vs Level for my RME ADI-2 Pro fs R with Multitone

And here is what I measure with automation through Virtins Multi Instrument

Seems quite similar to me.

Bottom line is that the Marantz SACD seems to have a similar (but slight) "Hump" between -40dB and -25dB to what we've seen with ESS or other home-made DAC.
More investigation on this may be usefull, in my opinion...

 

[MacCali]

If you already have a DAC you’re happy with, the Sony X800M2 ($279 at Best Buy) plays CDs, SACDs and Blu Ray audio and does the job just fine, and if you get the HDMI audio extractor below, you can output Blu Ray audio at 96 kHz, and the Sony’s DSEE engine will upsample Red Book CDs to 88.2 and SACDs to 174.6, via Coax. It’s what I use and it sounds great (to my ears).

Much cheaper, and since this is a digital signal being transmitted prior to any DA conversion, I’m awfully dubious about whether paying more is likely to significantly affect the end result. There’s all sorts of talk on “audiophile” forums about the “precision” of high-priced BD-ROM stabilizers and optical laser classes and I say the more esoteric and complicated the product literature is, the more I feel like I’m getting sold up a river…


Kanex Pro HDMI Audio De-Embedder with 3D Support, 2-Channel, HDCP Compliant, Full HD 1080p (HAECOAX) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009KAU0WO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_QWEBM1PEPNTZG76Y0N6J

Think I’m going to wait and buy that reavon 200. Never had a 4K player and I believe it does everything as well with proper performance at a rip off price lol. Or possibly that Panasonic flagship, either or and we got measurements for those.

But I can’t get an oppo.. so idk doesn’t seem to bad.

 

[srkbear]

Think I’m going to wait and buy that reavon 200. Never had a 4K player and I believe it does everything as well with proper performance at a rip off price lol. Or possibly that Panasonic flagship, either or and we got measurements for those.

But I can’t get an oppo.. so idk doesn’t seem to bad.

For 1800 bucks? Man, I have three Oppos—a BDP-103, a BDP-103D, and a UDP-203—and they are boxed and neatly stacked in my upstairs closet. One of them is even tricked out with $1,500 worth of hardware “upgrades” I got from oppomod—which was my mindset before I spent enough time on this site to come to my senses and shake off all that nonsense.

It’s an optical transport in this configuration, nothing more. I use my Sony UBP-x1000ES, which is no longer in production but was their flagship member of their “Elevated Standard” audio line about three years ago, and unlike the Oppo it’ll actually upsample SACD streams. I couldn’t tell a whiff of a difference between any of them, and neither would you if you went with the x800M2, their current flagship.

Unless you plan on using these predominantly as a 4K video player (which the Sony does perfectly fine by the way), from an audio standpoint there is no difference between any of them—all it’s doing for you with a de-embedder is sending a digital signal to your DAC. Save your dough.

 

[Rja4000]

I gave it a try on my side:
Here is the IMD vs Level for my RME ADI-2 Pro fs R with Multitone
View attachment 203742

And here is what I measure with automation through Virtins Multi Instrument
View attachment 203743

Seems quite similar to me.

Bottom line is that the Marantz SACD seems to have a similar (but slight) "Hump" between -40dB and -25dB to what we've seen with ESS or other home-made DAC.
More investigation on this may be usefull, in my opinion...

I've done some measurements with E1DA Cosmos ADC (Grade A) as well

Oddly enough, the IMD distortion is then higher and different profile than when measured with RME's own ADC, as you see with the black trend (E1DA) compared to the dotted red (RME) here-under.
(Measured with Virtins Multi Instrument Pro)

So maybe that's not the Marantz SACD that gives us this "Hump", after all.
I need to investigate further myself.

 

[pkane]

I've done some measurements with E1DA Cosmos ADC (Grade A) as well

Oddly enou!gh, the IMD distortion is then higher and different profile than when measured with RME's own ADC, as you see with the black trend (E1DA) compared to the dotted red (RME) here-under.
(Measured with Virtins Multi Instrument Pro)


View attachment 203966


So maybe that's not the Marantz SACD that gives us this "Hump", after all.
I need to investigate further myself.

ADI-2 Pro FS into Cosmos ADC seems to produce this hump for me, as well:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/e1da-cosmos-adc.27038/post-1025410

 

[Rja4000]

ADI-2 Pro FS into Cosmos ADC seems to produce this hump for me, as well:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/e1da-cosmos-adc.27038/post-1025410

We really need to investigate that.
That may be due to the (very) low input impedance of the E1DA Cosmos ADC ?
Or that may be the ADC itself ?
Or the trick Ivan (@IVX) is using to compensate for Harmonic distortion ?

I'll try it with a few other DACs.

 

[Rja4000]

ADI-2 Pro FS into Cosmos ADC seems to produce this hump for me, as well:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/e1da-cosmos-adc.27038/post-1025410

@pkane
By the way, what is the "TD+N" on this plot from Multitone ?
Is that THD+N ? If yes, how do you align the levels ?

 

[Rja4000]

I see @MC_RME investigated it already

I just measured it with my APx555B as analog generator and could easily see it. That needs some more examination, the amount of hump might be dependent on input resistance, capacitive load at the input, sample rate, register settings...even chip to chip variation could be, seeing the enormous SNR differences Ivan found with the chips...

 

[Sonic-Wall]

@VintageFlanker
Great Review!
I remember several test reports and videos where people always complained about the sound quality of the HEOS streamer.
Would be great to see some measurements for the streamer.
How does your measurement setup look like for measuring the S/PDIF inputs?

 

[pkane]

@pkane
By the way, what is the "TD+N" on this plot from Multitone ?
Is that THD+N ? If yes, how do you align the levels ?

TD+N is a more general total distortion (IMD) + noise that applies when you user more than a single tone in the test signal. It is the ratio of N+D to the RMS level of the signal.

 

[Rja4000]

TD+N is a more general total distortion (IMD) + noise that applies when you user more than a single tone in the test signal. It is the ratio of N+D to the RMS level of the signal.

Hi
OK
But what signal do you use in this case ?
The same SMPTE test signal ?
And if you compare to the total RMS level (vs the level of the 7kHz -12dB tone, as standard with SMPTE), I guess that explains the level difference ?

 

[pkane]

Hi
OK
But what signal do you use in this case ?
The same SMPTE test signal ?
And if you compare to the total RMS level (vs the level of the 7kHz -12dB tone, as standard with SMPTE), I guess that explains the level difference ?

In Multitone you have a choice to select whatever test signal you want. That's what's used for the sweep for both, IMD and TD+N calculation.

 

[Rja4000]

That may be due to the (very) low input impedance of the E1DA Cosmos ADC ?

It doesn't look like this is the issue. (I mean: the low impedance doesn't fool the RME DAC)

I tried at another range (higher input impedance)
and with the Linear Audio Autoranger II (an amp, basically) between the RME and the E1DA:
Hump is still there.

Looks like the ADC itself, for me.

 

[pkane]

It doesn't look like this is the issue. (I mean: the low impedance doesn't fool the RME DAC)

I tried at another range (higher input impedance)
and with the Linear Audio Autoranger II (an amp, basically) between the RME and the E1DA:
Hump is still there.

Looks like the ADC itself, for me.

If you're using Cosmos ADC in mono mode (channels summed) try doing stereo or just a single channel, instead. If that doesn't fix the hump, try to turn off ADC harmonic compensation, see if that's what's causing it.