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Marantz SACD 30n Measurements (SACD Player, DAC & Streamer)

pkane

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we come across standardized j-test..
or that sort of thing
an explanation?
I admit that I see a bit of confusion there.
j-test? juste so noisy we can t see the harmonics of the 250hz?

Look all the way to the left of the chart. You'll see bunched-up 250hz fundamental and harmonics there. The frequency axis is linear in this plot, so low frequencies are not spaced out as you'd normally see them on a log axis.

1651062668830.png
 

Blumlein 88

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what?
?

we come across standardized j-test..
or that sort of thing
an explanation?
I admit that I see a bit of confusion there.
j-test? juste so noisy we can t see the harmonics of the 250hz?
Often people just use a 1/4 sample rate tone and call it a J-test (I think what was done here). Strictly speaking the J-test is such a tone mixed with a low level square wave. It was designed to cause worst case jitter of a certain type for any SPDIF connection. Wouldn't really apply to USB connections. The Op shows both USB and SPDIF here. Again I think the 250 hz square wave was left out. Or he is using a 24 bit version of the J-test. Even without the square wave such a signal will show jitter as symmetrical sidebands.
 

pkane

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Often people just use a 1/4 sample rate tone and call it a J-test (I think what was done here). Strictly speaking the J-test is such a tone mixed with a low level square wave. It was designed to cause worst case jitter of a certain type for any SPDIF connection. Wouldn't really apply to USB connections. The Op shows both USB and SPDIF here. Again I think the 250 hz square wave was left out. Or he is using a 24 bit version of the J-test. Even without the square wave such a signal will show jitter as symmetrical sidebands.

Actually, it wasn't left out, just not as obvious on the plot due to linear frequency axis scaling.
 

morillon

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sorry for my English
I know what a j-test is ;-)
just that in some cases it seems to me that during jitter measurements it will be good to specify whether jtest or other...
see the case here or so noisy that we can't really grasp what's going on...
etc
the scales sometimes don't go up to like 100hz but 2k or more.. we end up doubting the test signals to use..
but very clearly to share this kind of measures it will be necessary to remain on a common and constant approach
;-)


???
 

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Justruckin

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For some reason, SACD/DSD still fascinate me. Has anyone come across a deep dive techincial review of the format and whether or not it has any real benefit (or fault) over PCM?

I cannot tell you the technical side with measurements, just my old ears... I have an old OPPO BDP-83 BD/SACD player that I use as a transport. I added the GeerFab DSD breakout box to strip the DSD signal out of the HDMI to feed to my Denafrips Ares II DAC. I think I can hear a difference over the PCM, but that could all be in my head too, I will not deny that, as just about everything sounds damn good on my setup. But, I swear the SACD with the GeerFab sounds more lively, more detailed, larger soundstage and just cleaner than the PCM, especially with a good quality live performance recording. My pea brain thinks DSD sounds better over the PCM on my system. Could I pass a blind test, probably not, but I like what I am hearing... Just my .02

Here is my setup... Bluesound Node 3, OPPO BDP-83 SACD/CD transport, GeerFab HDMI DSD D.BOB, Denafrips Iris DDC, Denafrips Ares II DAC, Denafrips Hades preamp, Denafrips Thallo amp, SVS SB3000 subs x 2, KLH Model 5 speakers.
 

LaL

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"intentionally flawed piece of gear"

What would the motivation be for impairing the product ?

"Yet, my concern is to know if Marantz customers would get scammed spending 3000€ for a good-looking, Japan made, but improperly engineered or intentionally flawed piece of gear"
 
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m8o

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I'm only commenting to say "yeah Cosmos"! Very educational, VintageFlanker. I just hope my schedule lightens soon so I can begin using it and follow your lead. Great work, and thanx.
 
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Vict0r

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Love the unicorn rainbow vomit mood lighting! Gives your reviews a flair of their own.
 

morillon

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I who thought that a saying rather dedicated to the technique...
:)))
 

Hipster Doofus

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Thank u for your review , and although we love Amirms reviews it is refreshing to see a slightly different angle on audio purchases, even though I own a topping pa5 and a gustard dac, I still display my 1968 model 15 amp and matching pre amp . These always bring a wow when someone visits… it just cool history and there is much to be said for build quality. I bought an onyko in 1984 which had fake surround sound and it lasted 30 years.

Au revoir
 

phoenixdogfan

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I like your photographic aesthetic, so keep it up. I continue to marvel at the excellent results you are able to obtain with the little E1DA Cosmos. By all means, please keep that up as well.

As for the Marantz, not my cup of tea, but not really a rip off either. I can see some people wanting something a little fancier than a Topping jumping on it-- which is their perogative. I'm not convinced anyone will hear the difference between a 105 db Sinad component, and a 120 db one.
 

RichT

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Fantastic work VintageFlanker. I was expecting another expensive poor measuring device, and now I want one. BTW Amir, I don't need the glasses to see this stuff in 3D, very nice to look at, regards
 
OP
VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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That would then say "Marantz blabla (SACD Player & DAC)", just like Amir is doing in the review TITLE
Amir is not doing such things. There is no title at all on top of his review posts (just check), but the title of the thread itself. I'm doing the same, except for the addition of a (intentionally shorted for miniatures) title on top of my post.
Screenshot_20220427-101838.png

;)

we always have to keep in mind that average income in Japan is 4x the income in China,
Only 4 times?!

One thing though minor, the Marantz MMM system first came with the SA-10 player. The SA-11S3 player uses the Burr Brown DSD1792A dac chip
Ah?
Screenshot_20220427-104207.png


Also, why to test at -3dBFS ?
"-3dBFS" is the stock parameter from RMAA. And it stands for THD+N graph only. PRO version allows you to adjust any level (can do 0dBFS if you will). I stuck with it to keep an apples to apples comparaison with my others results. Will also post @0dBFS THD from RMAA here, in addition to the REW one...

Can you show multitone out to 96kHz, since you used 192k signal already?
Will also come tonight.;)

"intentionally flawed piece of gear"

What would the motivation be for impairing the product ?
"House sound", AKA coloration.

Again I think the 250 hz square wave was left out.
What @pkane said. It is absolutely included in the test tone.
And yes, it is a 24bits J-test.

Looks like LED light and Google Pixels Night mode
You absolutely nailed it. Philips Hue spots in the dark + Google Pixel Night Mode combo. 100% poor DIY photography.:cool:
 

Phorize

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Marantz SACD 30n Measurements

View attachment 202394
Hi folks,

Here is my objective analysis of the Marantz SACD 30n. This sample in particular has been gently loaned to me by Sound United France directly. It is a versatile piece of gear, being not only a SACD/CD player, but also a standalone DAC and a streamer. In addition, it can also act as a preamp and claims to have a decent headphone amplifier. It has been released in late 2020 and MSRP is 3199€ as of this writing, so not quite "cheap".​
The SACD 30n is unusually massive and heavy... It weights as much as a classic integrated amp (13.5Kg), it is 44cm wide and 42cm deep. It introduced the new Marantz's industrial design language when launched, along with the Model 30 integrated amplifier. I have to confess that I was not wowed when I first discovered it reading press releases and IRL in stores, but now that I have it at home, I kind of like the overall aesthetics. Anyway, it is beautifully crafted and finished, as it is to be expected in this price range. It is by the way Made in Japan. The screen in the center is monochrome OLED with decent brightness and viewing angles, which I personally prefer instead of some cheap colour screen, with poor resolution and contrast I've seen on much more expensive products.​
On the rear, you got the regular digital inputs and outputs, with also two antennas. It obviously supports WiFi or Bluetooth, with Denon/Marantz's HEOS streaming app. Unfortunately, it lacks the Roon Ready certification, but I have been told that the latter should come with a firmware update. As you can see, both fixed and variable output are separated (with also two distinct circuits inside the unit, BTW). You also noticed the lack of balanced XLR outputs, which is a pity at this price.

Like both the pricer SA-12SE or SA-10 reviewed by @amirm, the SACD 30n also comes with Marantz Musical Mastering (MMM) :​
Marantz is using its own in-house, proprietary design for digital to analog conversion. The aforementioned differs from either regular Delta Sigma chips we often see from ESS, Cirrus, AKM, or TI, or to some extents, R2R DACs. Here, D/A conversion is done by dual DSP chips, along with FPGA ones. All PCM signals are also unsampled to DSD 11.2Mhz. While I thought this approach was kind of recent, I found that MMM has been first introduced with the SA-11S3, back in 2012.​

On top of that, you see above the discrete output stage (HDAM) for the fixed output. These kinds of architectures aren't exactly known for their transparency when it comes to measurements. So let me sum up: we've got a custom D/A design, with some discrete components. Great. Needless to say, the SACD 30n should start with a serious disadvantage for tests to come... or should it?

Measurements

Disclaimer: Measurements you are about to see are not intended to be as precise or extensive than what you get from a 30k€ AP. There is obviously both hardware and software limitations here, so not quite apples to apples comparison with Amir's testing. For example, I estimated SINAD (AKA THD+N) to be usually 5 to 6dB worse with my measurements rig, when compared to ASR reviews of the exact same products. Still, this data is enough to have a pretty good idea if the gear is bad or not, stellar, broken, or sub-par...

- ADC : E1DA Cosmos (Grade B), set to 2.7Vrms input. Minimum phase filter.
- Software : RMAA 6.4.5 PRO and Multitone Loopback Analyzer 1.0.15.
- Method : 8 runs for each test, then I choose the closest to the average. All regular tests are running 24bits / 44.1Khz except for Jitter and Multitone ones.
- Marantz SACD 30n : USB-B input, fixed (2.5Vrms) output for main results, unless specified otherwise.​

Fixed output
View attachment 202572

RMAA Summary

Test
Results
Rating
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB
+0.03, -0.15
Very good
Noise level, dB (A)
-116.9
Excellent
Dynamic range, dB (A)
115.4
Excellent
THD, %
0.00021
Excellent
THD + Noise, dB (A)
-106.4
Excellent
IMD + Noise, %
0.00070
Excellent
Stereo crosstalk, dB
-111.0
Excellent
IMD at 10 kHz, %
0.00061
Excellent

Well, it is not that bad after all... In fact, it is seriously good on many points ! THD is not only excellent at 0.00021%, but even better than specs (0.0008%), and effectively lower than my Matrix with XLR. Both Noise and DR are also quite respectable for results from unbalanced outputs, and again above manufacturer's specs (112dB SNR). Just looking at these numbers, I cannot really see any issue to speak about. With an AP, this could land in the 110dB+ SINAD territory. Sure, we do not reach the same level of performance of the best Chinese DACs, but for what it is : a product designed from scratch by a classic manufacturer, it is surprising in a good way.

THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)View attachment 202544

Left
Right
THD, %
0.00020
0.00022
THD + Noise, %
0.00049
0.00049
THD + Noise (A-weighted), %
0.00047
0.00049

Frequency responseView attachment 202542

Left
Right
From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB
-1.38, +0.03
-1.39, +0.02
From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB
-0.15, +0.03
-0.16, +0.02

Left
Right
RMS power, dB
-115.6
-115.8
RMS power (A-weighted), dB
-116.8
-117.0
Peak level, dB FS
-101.3
-102.2
DC offset, %
-0.0
+0.0

Dynamic rangeView attachment 202549

Left
Right
Dynamic range, dB
+114.3
+114.3
Dynamic range (A-weighted), dB
+115.5
+115.3
DC offset, %
-0.00
+0.00

Intermodulation distortion (swept tones)View attachment 202550

Left
Right
IMD + Noise at 5000 Hz,
0.00063
0.00062
IMD + Noise at 10000 Hz,
0.00061
0.00057
IMD + Noise at 15000 Hz,
0.00064
0.00060

Intermodulation distortionView attachment 202551

Left
Right
IMD + Noise, %
0.00070
0.00069
IMD + Noise (A-weighted), %
0.00050
0.00049

Stereo crosstalkView attachment 202552

Left
Right
Crosstalk at 100 Hz, dB
-109
-110
Crosstalk at 1000 Hz, dB
-110
-110
Crosstalk at 10000 Hz, dB
-112
-107

The SACD 30n nailed almost any test, except for a few. First is the simple Frequency Response, that you see with the two filters measured, instead of L/R channels (perfect match between both anyway). Filter 1 brings too much drop from 10Khz and above, that I assume is there on purpose. Filter 2 on the other hand, is audibly convenient, while not the flattest around (-0.5dB at 18Khz). Dynamic Range showed a bit of weird behaviour, with spikes at upper frequencies that I'm not used to see in this test. Shape usually remains the same in both Noise and DR tests. THD+N is quite decent with no audible flaw. There is also a repeatable peak at 100Hz I cannot explain (about -125/-130dB) that is quiet enough anyway.

Let's see what is the deal with both S/PDIF inputs:
USB VS Optical VS Coaxial
Test
USBOpticalCoaxial
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB
+0.03, -0.15+0.03, -0.16+0.03, -0.16
Noise level, dB (A)
-116.9-116.9-116.8
Dynamic range, dB (A)
115.4115.1115.3
THD, %
0.000210.000210.00021
IMD + Noise, %
0.000700.000720.00071
Stereo crosstalk, dB
-111.0-111.1-110.9


No difference whatsoever. As it has to be expected for any properly designed DAC.


Variable outputView attachment 202573
Test
Preamp @1V
Preamp @1.7V
Preamp @2.7V
Preamp @3.5V
Preamp @4.5V
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB
+0.03, -0.18
+0.03, -0.18
+0.03, -0.18
+0.03, -0.18
+0.03, -0.18
Noise level, dB (A)
-112.5
-114.7
-114.9
-114.9
-115.0
Dynamic range, dB (A)
111.6
113.4
113.6
113.7
113.7
THD, %
0.00131
0.00480
0.00410
0.00358
0.00316
IMD + Noise, %
0.00180
0.00442
0.00382
0.00341
0.00309
Stereo crosstalk, dB
-102.2
-102.6
-102.0
-101.9
-102.0

Here is the variable output that uses a dedicated preamp circuit. It is an old school analogue approach as opposite to the most common digital attenuation. Yet, volume is still digitally controled, which is good. About that: unfortunatletly, no front panel button will work for the volume, you have to use the remote for that. I hope it could be considered to be add this with further firmware updates. Output may go up to 5Vrms, which is suitable to drive many power amps these days. Results are very consistent between levels measured, except for THD that moves up and down. It is effectively less clean than the fixed output, with <1Khz distortion added. Harmonics >1Khz are still acceptably restrained at -100dB or so. Overall, I call it suitable for transparent music listening.

Headphones ampView attachment 202574
Test
@1V Low Gain
@2.7V Mid Gain
@4.5V High Gain
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB
+0.03, -0.15
+0.03, -0.16
+0.03, -0.16
Noise level, dB (A)
-114.6
-115.5
-116.9
Dynamic range, dB (A)
113.8
114.4
115.5
THD, %
0.00061
0.00245
0.012
IMD + Noise, %
0.00111
0.00265
0.012
Stereo crosstalk, dB
-77.9
-74.0
-74.3
Still no extensive tests for the headphones output, with the lack of load board.... At few fixed levels measured, results are very good when using the Low Gain setting. Mid Gain also showed fairly acceptable results, while High Gain has strong output (I still had -2dBFS signal even with Cosmos set to 6.5Vrms input) at the expense of too much distortion. Marantz claims only "50mW / 32Ω" with is anemic. I'm sure, tho, that it could be measured as more powerful. For all Gain and volume, crosstalk has gone up quite significantly (TRS's shared GND for L/R the reason?).​


Jitter
(48Khz, 1-24Khz bandwidth, 16 averages, 262K FFT)

USBView attachment 202554

S/PDIFView attachment 202553

We meet again the sidebands already observed in the 1Khz THD+N graph. Fortunately, their level is way too low to be any kind of audible consideration. S/PDIF (both Coax and Toslink) has overall lower peaks and noise floor, but add two little bumps that I'm not worrying about considering their level. Clearly, Jitter is not an issue at all with the SACD 30n.


Multitone 64
(192Khz, 20Hz-22Khz bandwidth, 10 averages, 262K FFT)

USBView attachment 202555

S/PDIFView attachment 202556

Results are nothing short of excellent and one of the best I measured from any DAC with single ended outputs.


Conclusions
At this point, some of you may think about questioning the competitiveness of the Marantz SACD 30n. Does it measure better than some DACs at 1/4 of the cost? Nope. But again, that is not the point of this review. I assume that ASR is not the ideal target audience for this kind of "classic" audiophile products. Yet, my concern is to know if Marantz customers would get scammed spending 3000€ for a good-looking, Japan made, but improperly engineered or intentionally flawed piece of gear. Good news: they won't. The SACD 30n measures well, with no flaws from a technical standpoint. Furthermore, when knowing that it is a complete in-house design for its D/A conversion, then I almost call it excellence. Others things to be considered, it works well with plenty of features, it is well-built with tons of components and will probably last longer than some competitors.

In any case, I would like to address my gratitude to Sound United (AKA Denon/Marantz) for sending me this unit and that way, consenting to third-party verification. This is the kind of transparent behaviour we should expect from any manufacturer.

Flanker rating: Competent
Nice! It’s important I think to acknowledge (as you do) that competent technical execution doesn’t preclude a device being fancier than the average black box dac for no other reason other than some people just want pay more to have a fancy looking box in their living room.
 

Sal1950

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Great review, thanks!
I'm very curios as to how this $3400 disc player or the $7499 unit Amir measured would stack up against the $279 Sony UBP-X800M2 ? I had one here for a bit but returned it for non-performance related issues. In any case, at that time I found it to be an above average A/V disc spinner with a very smooth and quiet disc transport that will play just about any disc you can feed it from CD to multich SACD and DVD-A along with Atmos, DTS-X, Auro. A fairly substantial build at 8+ lbs compared to the rest of the blu-ray players still available.
Maybe we can find a way to get one of these in the cue ???
iN8Pn2S7QVRvtuZLj6kj3g.jpg

Sony-UBP-X800M2-Back.jpg
 

TheBatsEar

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