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Why are preamps so expensive?

DesertHawk

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Help me better understand preamps. My understanding is that if you only have a dac as a source and you buy a dac with built-in volume control then you don't even need a preamp. Basically, a preamp is needed if you are using a power amp that isn't an "integrated amplifier" and you have more than one audio source (e.g. a turntable and a streamer) or you need volume controls.

Looking at the Schiit Freya as an example. While this looks great (both in aesthetics and in measurements) it costs $600. Not only does it cost that much, but Amir said, "Honestly, there is no way I could ever build you a preamp with this functionality and performance and sell it at this price." https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/schiit-freya-s-preamplifier-review-2.11543/

While I trust Amir, you can get a 150w x 2 @ 8 ohm Hypex amp fully built for less than the Freya

As a non-electrical engineer, I have a hard time squaring away that something that generates that much power costs less than something that essentially gives you multiple plug-ins and volume control. It feels like the power amp involves all kinds of complicated hardware and the preamp is, effectively, a switch and a volume knob. Please, help me understand!

I do realize that particular preamp is fully balanced with XLR inputs, but so is the Hypex. I also realize that preamp has amazing SINAD and total distortion scores, but going back to my (almost certainly misinformed) assumptions of the preamp being a "switch and a knob" it seems like that should be relatively easy to achieve.

Thanks in advance. (apologies if this has been discussed before. I honestly searched alot for this topic, on this site and others, without a satisfactory answer. Maybe I'm just not good at internet searches! Lol)
 

RayDunzl

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the preamp is, effectively, a switch and a volume knob. Please, help me understand!

A preamp is more typically a switch and a volume knob and a line-level amplifier.

And maybe a remote control for those functions.

And maybe more than one zone for outputs connected to different inputs.

And maybe a display for what it is doing.

And input trims so the levels are the same when you switch inputs.

And channel balance.

And phase inversion.

And so on.

1650420808218.png
 
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DVDdoug

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The main reason preamps are expensive is because they are specialty items, manufactured & distributed in small quantities. You get the most from your money with an AVR which is mass produced and sold into a highly competitive market.

Plus "audiophiles" are highly-attracted to expensive stuff!!!
 

Bugless

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A preamp‘s job is to increase the voltage of the audio signal to the level that the amplifier will produce its full output power. It must do this without introducing any distortion since that distortion would then be amplified by the amplifier. It also has to switch the inputs and provide volume control. And it sure would be nice if it had a remote control. It might as well have a phono stage while we’re at it. As you add features and complexity, you add cost.
 
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DesertHawk

DesertHawk

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A preamp‘s job is to increase the voltage of the audio signal to the level that the amplifier will produce its full output power. It must do this without introducing any distortion since that distortion would then be amplified by the amplifier. It also has to switch the inputs and provide volume control. And it sure would be nice if it had a remote control. It might as well have a phono stage while we’re at it. As you add features and complexity, you add cost.
I thought maybe something like this might be the case.

Are there situations when this doesn't matter? For example, do can you "get away" with directly connecting your dac if you have active speakers instead of passive? Does the output impedance of your dac (or phono stage or whatever) make a difference?
 

RayDunzl

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rgpit

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A preamp is more typically a switch and a volume knob and a line-level amplifier.

And maybe a remote control for those functions.

And maybe more than one zone for outputs connected to different inputs.

And maybe a display for what it is doing.

And input trims so the levels are the same when you switch inputs.

And channel balance.

And phase inversion.

And so on.

View attachment 201127
... and power supply.
 

Bugless

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I thought maybe something like this might be the case.

Are there situations when this doesn't matter? For example, do can you "get away" with directly connecting your dac if you have active speakers instead of passive? Does the output impedance of your dac (or phono stage or whatever) make a difference?
You should be able to connect a modern DAC directly to powered speakers. Back in the day, preamps were much more necessary since not all sources put out enough voltage for connecting directly to amps. They’ve stuck around mostly due to the quality of life features they add. Passive preamps also exist that have no power supply and will switch sources and provide volume control, but they can be problematic with some sources, or be very expensive, in the case of transformer based volume controls.
 

mhardy6647

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Count me in the camp of why are preamps so expensive, too, please.
Topping sells, I dunno, hundred dollar amps and DACs, but their preamp...

1650455651959.png


yowza!

Why not a $100 USD preamp? Minimalist is fine, unbalanced I/O is fine -- a la Schiit's... umm... Saga S:

1650455799330.png


Still -- 300 Samoleums?
 

Cbdb2

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I'm with the OP. Its purpose is a switch and a volume control. Very few sources don't have the level to drive an amp. I had a preamp go bad a long time ago and couldn't afford to replace it. I just connected source to amp (no turntable) and used the amps volume controls, worked fine for months. In a preamp the enclosure and connecters costs more than ALL the electronics inside. Your aufiophools dont know this. They think if a product costs 10x the price, the electronics in the box will also be 10x the price, more like twice. And the cost of R&D for something that has been solved 50 years ago is minimum.

The answer to the question? There that expensive because people will pay that much.
 
OP
DesertHawk

DesertHawk

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I'm with the OP. Its purpose is a switch and a volume control. Very few sources don't have the level to drive an amp. I had a preamp go bad a long time ago and couldn't afford to replace it. I just connected source to amp (no turntable) and used the amps volume controls, worked fine for months. In a preamp the enclosure and connecters costs more than ALL the electronics inside. Your aufiophools dont know this. They think if a product costs 10x the price, the electronics in the box will also be 10x the price, more like twice. And the cost of R&D for something that has been solved 50 years ago is minimum.

The answer to the question? There that expensive because people will pay that much.
How do you square that away with Amir saying, "Honestly, there is no way I could ever build you a preamp with this functionality and performance and sell it at this price."

There must be something in there that cost alot.
 

billyjoebob

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I'm with the OP. Its purpose is a switch and a volume control. Very few sources don't have the level to drive an amp. I had a preamp go bad a long time ago and couldn't afford to replace it. I just connected source to amp (no turntable) and used the amps volume controls, worked fine for months. In a preamp the enclosure and connecters costs more than ALL the electronics inside. Your aufiophools dont know this. They think if a product costs 10x the price, the electronics in the box will also be 10x the price, more like twice. And the cost of R&D for something that has been solved 50 years ago is minimum.

The answer to the question? There that expensive because people will pay that much.
Agreed.
ALL preamps are pieces of junk.
Don't buy into their demands.
They are ALL fools.
Audiphools, I tell you.
 

LTig

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A preamp is more typically a switch and a volume knob and a line-level amplifier.

And maybe a remote control for those functions.

And maybe more than one zone for outputs connected to different inputs.

And maybe a display for what it is doing.

And input trims so the levels are the same when you switch inputs.

And channel balance.

And phase inversion.

And so on.
On the other hand one can get a small analog audio mixer with individual channel controls including EQ, mic and line level inputs, starting at less than $100. More money adds more channels, faders instead of rotating pots, multi band graphic EQ for the master output and so on. There is a lot of functionality for a lot less money. See the Behringer Xenyx / Mackie VLZ / Yamaha MG series ... I've no clue how these companies are able to sell at those prices.
 

Angsty

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You might want a preamp if you’re mixing balanced and unbalanced sources and outputs. I have a Bryston BP-25 at the heart of my system that manages the inputs from CD player, turntable/phono, tuner and digital source out to a balanced amp and an unbalanced powered subwoofer. It would likely be that last component I’d upgrade or replace.
 

Chrispy

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I'd think the overriding problem is simply volume of production/economies of scale. Few people want a pre-amp alone.
 

Angsty

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I'd think the overriding problem is simply volume of production/economies of scale. Few people want a pre-amp alone.
Agree. Integrated amps have become much more popular than preamp/power amp combinations. My Bryston pair I’ve had for 15+ years; the last amp I purchased was an integrated and it works just as well as the separates.
 

Chrispy

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Agree. Integrated amps have become much more popular than preamp/power amp combinations. My Bryston pair I’ve had for 15+ years; the last amp I purchased was an integrated and it works just as well as the separates.
I still wonder about integrated amps, just receivers without tuner/internet :) Still, not a big deal....Bryston might be interesting if you actually need a 20 year warranty?
 

theREALdotnet

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My understanding is that if you only have a dac as a source and you buy a dac with built-in volume control then you don't even need a preamp.

Correct.
 
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