PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[Geert]

For that to be true, "true" high res should be distinguishably better from the 48/16 maximum in the first place.

It doesn't need to be true, customer just need to believe it is

 

[conman]

It doesn't need to be true, customer just need to believe it is

For that to be the case, they'd need to know that PS audio negotiated this special back door to the data, which is so far just hearsay.

 

[Geert]

For that to be the case, they'd need to know that PS audio negotiated this special back door to the data, which is so far just hearsay.

Or PS Audio gives it a name: "There has never been a better sounding DAC at anywhere close to the price of DirectStream".

And on the 'PerfectWave SACD Transport': "Like its predecessor, DMP, PST opens the long restricted DSD layer of SACD to PS Audio DACs. PST will deliver the raw DSD layer of copyright protected SACD directly into your PS Audio DAC".

According to Ted Smith, PS Audio engineer, you can use the DSD bitstream without violating Sony's licensing as long as you protect it from end users making copies. Maybe that's why they use I2S for transport.

 

[LarryRS]

I don't know what there is to "hear" in this context. Measurements conclusively show that there is no sonic difference as far as fidelity. If I sold you a $5000 filter that I claim would double your gas mileage in your car if you ran your fuel through it, but lab tests showed this to not hold water whatsoever, you would only want to hear from people who have used it??? That people read and understand the report means nothing? They should stay quiet because they have not experienced such?

That is wrong, correct? The whole purpose of creating objective data is that it doesn't matter who is looking at it. Me with equipment at hand or someone not. We are both looking at the same data.

And the whole purpose of audio equipment is to listen to music. If the data have no relevance to that purpose what is the point? Using your fuel filter analogy, you never drove the car. The numbers are relevant only in the context of their actual use. If you look at the window sticker of a new car you will see the EPA fuel economy measures accompanied by "Actual results will vary for many reasons, including driving conditions and how you drive and maintain your vehicle."

You write "Measurements conclusively show that there is no sonic difference as far as fidelity." The first definition of sonic in the Merriam-Webster dictionary is "Of or relating to audible sound". Where did the audible come in?

I don't own a PowerPlant. Simply because I don't have a need for it. If, however, my system did have noise problems that I couldn't resolve with less expensive methods, would I try one? Perhaps. There is little subjective about putting your ear up against a speaker, hearing noise, and then making a change and not hearing the noise.

 

[JSmith]

couldn't resolve with less expensive methods

To be frank at the price of this product that statement is impossible to relate to reality.


JSmith

 

[Geert]

If, however, my system did have noise problems that I couldn't resolve with less expensive methods

92 pages of discussion over 3 threads about the PowerPlant 12, and not a single documented case of this device doing any good. Not saying that it's impossible, but instead of arguing it would be very insightful if people defending power regulation would come up with some objective data instead of anecdotes and assumptions.

 

[LarryRS]

To be frank at the price of this product that statement is impossible to relate to reality.


JSmith

For some, not for everyone. As an extreme example, let's say I read a road test of a Bentley and the reviewer comments on how much nicer the ride is in a Rolls-Royce. I certainly can't relate that to my reality. That doesn't invalidate the comment.

And I don't think it's fair to blame it on Frank.

 

[JSmith]

For some, not for everyone.

Please provide an specific example... and not a car analogy. I stand by the comment it is impossible to not rectify those problems with less expensive methods (ground loop isolator, DC blocker, line filter) up to and including proper, cheaper AC regenerators.

And I don't think it's fair to blame it on Frank.

Fair call... Frank is cool.

JSmith

 

[srkbear]

So let me get this straight - your claim is that PS audio has negotiated a "backdoor" to using the higher resolution available on SACD than other manufacturers are allowed and that's why their product should sound better? For that to be true, "true" high res should be distinguishably better from the 48/16 maximum in the first place.

I didn’t claim it was true. You don’t think there’s a market for folks who want DSD from their SACD collection?

 

[srkbear]

For that to be the case, they'd need to know that PS audio negotiated this special back door to the data, which is so far just hearsay.

All I know is that PS Audio is the only manufacturer with gear capable of overriding Sony’s DRM restriction, and they promote that in their marketing materials for their PerfectWave. Go visit their website.

 

[LarryRS]

92 pages of discussion over 3 threads about the PowerPlant 12, and not a single documented case of this device doing any good. Not saying that it's impossible, but instead of arguing it would be very insightful if people defending power regulation would come up with some objective data instead of anecdotes and assumptions.

What objective data do you want? Line up 20 people, march them blindfolded by a speaker to listen for noise while the power conditioner is either in or out of the system? People in this thread have reported that it made a difference in their systems. They have actual experience with the PowerPlant in their system. Their comments are dismissed as anecdotes.

 

[srkbear]

What objective data do you want? Line up 20 people, march them blindfolded by a speaker to listen for noise while the power conditioner is either in or out of the system? People in this thread have reported that it made a difference in their systems. They have actual experience with the PowerPlant in their system. Their comments are dismissed as anecdotes.

You keep saying that, and there are reams of discussions on this site explaining the fallibility of anecdotal evidence. Folks who have invested $6,000 have motivations to hear a difference. The data doesn’t support there being a difference, and Amir’s testing was extremely detailed and rigorous.

 

[Mart68]

What objective data do you want? Line up 20 people, march them blindfolded by a speaker to listen for noise while the power conditioner is either in or out of the system? People in this thread have reported that it made a difference in their systems. They have actual experience with the PowerPlant in their system. Their comments are dismissed as anecdotes.

They are anecdotes. But the point is that although this device may have solved a grounding issue that could be done other ways.

And the point of the review is to show that the claims of improved sound quality are false. Solving a grounding problem is not the claim that this device is sold on and it is not the reason people buy it. They buy it because they think it is a magic box that you plug it in and blacks get blacker and veils are lifted.

 

[LarryRS]

Please provide an specific example... and not a car analogy. I stand by the comment it is impossible to not rectify those problems with less expensive methods (ground loop isolator, DC blocker, line filter) up to and including proper, cheaper AC regenerators.

What you say may be absolutely true and I have no problem with that. But we don't have the data to support that statement either pro or con.

 

[srkbear]

What you say may be absolutely true and I have no problem with that. But we don't have the data to support that statement either pro or con.

Now you’re a data advocate?

 

[threni]

What objective data do you want? Line up 20 people, march them blindfolded by a speaker to listen for noise while the power conditioner is either in or out of the system?

Uh, yes please. Assuming the test is set up correctly (level matched, double blind, statistically meaningful number of tests etc).

People in this thread have reported that it made a difference in their systems. They have actual experience with the PowerPlant in their system. Their comments are dismissed as anecdotes.

Anecdata; the worst kind of data.

 

[Mart68]

Imagine if everyone who had a grounding issue had to spend six large in order to fix it. There would be a lot of people living with noise and hum. Or just giving up on the whole deal.

 

[Geert]

What objective data do you want? Line up 20 people, march them blindfolded by a speaker to listen for noise while the power conditioner is either in or out of the system?

A description and diagram of the system under test, and measurements comparing with and without power regulation.

People in this thread have reported that it made a difference in their systems.

Anecdotes and claims. No evidence, no objective data, no elaborate description of the use case, no idea if less expensive methods were tested.

They have actual experience with the PowerPlant in their system. Their comments are dismissed as anecdotes.

Without evidence they are anecdotes, I didn't invent the word. Except for a claim there's nothing to dismiss.

 

[LarryRS]

They are anecdotes. But the point is that although this device may have solved a grounding issue that could be done other ways.

And the point of the review is to show that the claims of improved sound quality are false. Solving a grounding problem is not the claim that this device is sold on and it is not the reason people buy it. They buy it because they think it is a magic box that you plug it in and blacks get blacker and veils are lifted.

Now you’re a data advocate?

Absolutely. If they are data that address the sound quality.

 

[Mart68]

Absolutely. If they are data that address the sound quality.

only if you think getting rid of hum is the same as improving sound quality. Okay so technically it is. But that's not the use that the device is sold on.

Improving sound quality is things like second violin having more separation in the mix. That's what the device is sold on. That's why people buy it. The vast majority of purchasers of this device do not have a problem to solve. They buy it because they think it will make a good sound even better. It won't.