SMSL D1SE Balanced ES9038PRO

[deafenears]

Pretty what are those copper cables? Do they cost an arm and a leg?

Arctic Cables' Magnus. Just an arm, not a leg

 

[raif71]

How the stack looks is everything!

View attachment 197062
Top shelf reserved for a MiniDSP Flex Digital.

At the bottom, is that the gustard p26 preamp?

 

[deafenears]

At the bottom, is that the gustard p26 preamp?

Nah, the Gustard X26 DAC.

 

[MalinYamato]

Nah, the Gustard X26 DAC.

sooo big -- Is your DAC bigger than Schiit Yggdrasil? I can't own a decent DAC because I am a lady without a muscle man to move it for me, as for a DAC to sund guud it probably needs to be elephant heavy.

 

[Veri]

I am a very hot lady who desires hot masculine males.

Lol your posts and sig sure tend to be.. something

 

[MalinYamato]

Lol your posts and sig sure tend to be.. something

you see, my upgrade path ends just here because before I upgrade to the next level, a Gustard X25 Pro elephant I better get a very strong MAN in my life, who may move it to a location in the apartment of my liking and/or lift it up into a rack. What I am trying to hint at here is asking WHY on earth does the DAC have to be this huge and heavy?! I am here to find out about that mystery among you audio experts.
One more question: what is the point in having two DAC chips, two 9038Pros? The expensive DAP m17 of fiio also has two. Why?
The D1SE I ordered has only ONE yet D1SE is probably more for ladies as it is relatively quite unheavy at 1.6 kg.

 

[Lupin]

One more question: what is the point in having two DAC chips, two 9038Pros?

Marketing.

Audiophiles orgasm on specs like that and are willing to pay absurd prices for DACs with dual chips because they of course they "hear" all kind of differences and music becomes even more analog etc. It's an easy way for a manufacturer to hugely jack up the price for a certain product.

I know that using dual DAC chips have the potential to increase the measurable performance but if you look at the performance of the single chip D90SE and compare that to some other boutique dual chip DACs you wonder why bother... you easily pay 4x as much for objectively worse performance..

 

[Mr.XO]

Right - now we get into subjective territory - and I'll try to keep that somewhat terse, because it's just really swampy territory : ) For starters - how can DACs that measure within specs that should make it impossible to hear a difference between them, actually sound different? Can they actually sound different if they measure (almost) the same? If SINAD/SNR are the only metrics that matter, why don't we all just get a Topping D10s or an SMSL SU-6 and be done with it? Obviously, most people even on this forum wouldn't do that, even though from a dollar-per-performance metric, that would be the only logical thing to do. IMO the answer is that a DAC is not only a DAC, but also an amplifier, and that amplifier has an analog output stage, and that analog output stage will respond differently to a 'real' load vs. a 'synthetic' load, and therefore sound different from one DAC to another.
Nobody 'listens' to a DAC, they listen to an entire signal path, within the DAC, and the rest of the downstream signal chain.

So a 'warm' DAC - what does that mean? To most people, a 'warm' DAC will resolve treble information without being harsh or excessive. Strictly speaking though, that's not the job of a DAC; the DAC is supposed to render everything in a recording, without adding or subtracting anything. Subjective terms like 'warm' mean different things to different people - some people will run a system that doesn't resolve much treble, their speakers might roll of above 10khz, or they have other components which will attenuate treble resolution. Then there's the human factor - some people are more tolerant of treble, others have hearing loss - actually prefer more treble etc. etc. In the end, 'warm' means different things to different people, and is therefore purely subjective. In the end, I think rather than talking about 'warm' DACs I think it makes more sense to talk about recordings with high levels of treble; be it either that they're bad recordings, or just feature lots of treble.

Some DAC manufacturers have long caught on to this 'treble problem' - hence the market for R2R DACs etc.
SMSL and Topping only recently started to engineer their products not only according to measurements but also subjective sound signatures; for example custom sound profiles on some recent SMSL DACs, where the sound profiles inject either even, odd or both order harmonics into the signal, like on the D1SE. And of course, the 'tuning' of recent DACs by SMSL or Topping goes further than that - a lot of attention goes into the 'tuning' of the analog output stage, at least compared to just a few years ago. I've seen posts on this forum by John Yang, where he describes in detail the different sound characteristics of different opamps in the output stage, now some would call that heresy - however, since he's an audio engineer who does this sort of thing for a living, I'd be careful to dismiss his findings on the topic.

Coming back to the Topping DX7 Pro - I had it, and I couldn't make it work in my target system. Not the fault of the DX7 though - that DAC is just outright fantastic, and only resolves what is in the recording. Problem is, all my other gear in the target system downstream is also highly resolving, and crappy recordings will sound - well, crappy.
In essence then, I really never have a problem with most DACs I buy, but rather the eclectic mix of recordings I Iisten to - most of which are recorded without special attention to 'mastering', in terms of sound quality, or 'excessive treble'. As a result, some DACs work better for me, not because they're 'warm' or 'bright', but because they have an analog output stage which - on my mostly crappy source material - will attenuate treble ... somewhat.

I think the Gustard X26 Pro is the kind of TOTL DAC that does everything well, and nothing wrong. Yes, just like any other DAC some things could be better - like the timbre, I think the D1SE for example does that slightly better. I wouldn't call it warm or bright though - again, that's subjective - but what I can tell you is that I can listen to it without getting tired of it - for hours at a time, and the rest of my system 'scales up' when I attach it; i.e. bass impact hits harder, transients are sharper, and the treble is somewhat rolled off compared to other DACs. And again, that's a very subjective impression specific to my reference system - pop the X26 into your average near-field/desktop system, and I very much doubt it would sound much different from say a Topping D10s in the same near-field setup : )

If you want to upgrade, and not spend the money on the X26 Pro, I think you can not go wrong with the Gustard X18 - not only does it measure well, but looking at the internals, specifically the I/V conversion stage, I think that's a really well engineered product. Just like Topping and SMSL, Gustard is another manufacturer that pays attention to the 'sound signature' of their DACs. Would I recommend the X26 Pro over the X18, and D1SE? I can't speak in detail to the X18, since I don't own it - but - finally when it comes to the D1SE - what you get is so damn well balanced and performant, I honestly don't see the need to spend more. So no - unless you have a really TOTL system which will literally resolve pins dropping, and is capable of huge dynamic swings - don't bother with the X26 Pro, it's not worth it. Unless you have the system to match it, you won't get the very marginal benefits the X26 Pro *might* have over say the D1SE, and - maybe - the X18.

Hopefully you'll find this useful - to sum it up - no, unless you have or want to build the system to go with it - don't get the X26 Pro. If excessive treble resolution is a problem, chances are you would like the D1SE, and maybe - the X18. Caveat emptor: I think both of these DACs are probably more of a 'sidegrade' compared to the DX7, but in case of the X18 I might be wrong.

This is such a great write up - very helpful. Thank you!

I have been looking for a new DAC to replace my dying Marantz HD-DAC1 in a Yamaha A-S2200 + KLH Model 5 based system. Have been reading up on the X26 Pro but after going over the comment the D1SE comes across as something I should audition first.

So, is the D1SE a real / fully balanced DAC, or is it pseudo like the Schiit Bifrost-2?
Its not clear even from their manuals; of course the title of this thread says Balanced.. but wanna be sure.

Thanks!

 

[Mr.XO]

wooahhh, THank you so much!!
your description was incredible, goldensound also mentioned some similar stuff, x26 does almost everything amazing except for the timber, d1se really good all-rounder, especially for less than 1000$,
I will still wait a couple of weeks until some new owners appear on the Gustard x18 and share their opinion, the design looks really good, well is still not a full picture of the board, but in general, looks great.

I guess is also important as we are comparing different products to compare also the bad stuff..
SMSL support is not always the best or responding really fast, remember the problem with m500 vk1 3rd harmonic issue or s9 same problem, here volikovvv with i2s issues and no response.

Gustard x18 is still not on their website (really?)and the only review so far on youtube, there is an incompatibility issue using i2s, , not even SSL(certificate) on the website.. also, they are 1 or 2 firmware updates for gustard x26, where can you find those, on their website support, nope, here in ASR forum.. again not great..
Topping I got too many problems with them, they replied really fast and John was a lifesaver but still, I got issues with dsd/dsf fails also with files 96k PCM (flac) with D7 pro, I also bought the topping L30 in October 2021, the problem with L30 was long gone by that time or I least that was I thought, I mean, the problem with l30 was discovered 1 or 2 years ago, guess what? they sent me a unit with the problem, not the updated version.. ( and the first answer for hifigo was, "Red unit don't have that problem, you are good" .... thanks to John I found out that that was not true(or a big lie), and after several emails coming and going they sent me a new unit which I replaced for L50 and pay the difference),

Hey,
Did you finalize and buy one? Thanks!

 

[MalinYamato]

Right - now we get into subjective territory - and I'll try to keep that somewhat terse, because it's just really swampy territory : ) For starters - how can DACs that measure within specs that should make it impossible to hear a difference between them, actually sound different? Can they actually sound different if they measure (almost) the same? If SINAD/SNR are the only metrics that matter, why don't we all just get a Topping D10s or an SMSL SU-6 and be done with it? Obviously, most people even on this forum wouldn't do that, even though from a dollar-per-performance metric, that would be the only logical thing to do. IMO the answer is that a DAC is not only a DAC, but also an amplifier, and that amplifier has an analog output stage, and that analog output stage will respond differently to a 'real' load vs. a 'synthetic' load, and therefore sound different from one DAC to another.
Nobody 'listens' to a DAC, they listen to an entire signal path, within the DAC, and the rest of the downstream signal chain.

So a 'warm' DAC - what does that mean? To most people, a 'warm' DAC will resolve treble information without being harsh or excessive. Strictly speaking though, that's not the job of a DAC; the DAC is supposed to render everything in a recording, without adding or subtracting anything. Subjective terms like 'warm' mean different things to different people - some people will run a system that doesn't resolve much treble, their speakers might roll of above 10khz, or they have other components which will attenuate treble resolution. Then there's the human factor - some people are more tolerant of treble, others have hearing loss - actually prefer more treble etc. etc. In the end, 'warm' means different things to different people, and is therefore purely subjective. In the end, I think rather than talking about 'warm' DACs I think it makes more sense to talk about recordings with high levels of treble; be it either that they're bad recordings, or just feature lots of treble.

Some DAC manufacturers have long caught on to this 'treble problem' - hence the market for R2R DACs etc.
SMSL and Topping only recently started to engineer their products not only according to measurements but also subjective sound signatures; for example custom sound profiles on some recent SMSL DACs, where the sound profiles inject either even, odd or both order harmonics into the signal, like on the D1SE. And of course, the 'tuning' of recent DACs by SMSL or Topping goes further than that - a lot of attention goes into the 'tuning' of the analog output stage, at least compared to just a few years ago. I've seen posts on this forum by John Yang, where he describes in detail the different sound characteristics of different opamps in the output stage, now some would call that heresy - however, since he's an audio engineer who does this sort of thing for a living, I'd be careful to dismiss his findings on the topic.

Coming back to the Topping DX7 Pro - I had it, and I couldn't make it work in my target system. Not the fault of the DX7 though - that DAC is just outright fantastic, and only resolves what is in the recording. Problem is, all my other gear in the target system downstream is also highly resolving, and crappy recordings will sound - well, crappy.
In essence then, I really never have a problem with most DACs I buy, but rather the eclectic mix of recordings I Iisten to - most of which are recorded without special attention to 'mastering', in terms of sound quality, or 'excessive treble'. As a result, some DACs work better for me, not because they're 'warm' or 'bright', but because they have an analog output stage which - on my mostly crappy source material - will attenuate treble ... somewhat.

I think the Gustard X26 Pro is the kind of TOTL DAC that does everything well, and nothing wrong. Yes, just like any other DAC some things could be better - like the timbre, I think the D1SE for example does that slightly better. I wouldn't call it warm or bright though - again, that's subjective - but what I can tell you is that I can listen to it without getting tired of it - for hours at a time, and the rest of my system 'scales up' when I attach it; i.e. bass impact hits harder, transients are sharper, and the treble is somewhat rolled off compared to other DACs. And again, that's a very subjective impression specific to my reference system - pop the X26 into your average near-field/desktop system, and I very much doubt it would sound much different from say a Topping D10s in the same near-field setup : )

If you want to upgrade, and not spend the money on the X26 Pro, I think you can not go wrong with the Gustard X18 - not only does it measure well, but looking at the internals, specifically the I/V conversion stage, I think that's a really well engineered product. Just like Topping and SMSL, Gustard is another manufacturer that pays attention to the 'sound signature' of their DACs. Would I recommend the X26 Pro over the X18, and D1SE? I can't speak in detail to the X18, since I don't own it - but - finally when it comes to the D1SE - what you get is so damn well balanced and performant, I honestly don't see the need to spend more. So no - unless you have a really TOTL system which will literally resolve pins dropping, and is capable of huge dynamic swings - don't bother with the X26 Pro, it's not worth it. Unless you have the system to match it, you won't get the very marginal benefits the X26 Pro *might* have over say the D1SE, and - maybe - the X18.

Hopefully you'll find this useful - to sum it up - no, unless you have or want to build the system to go with it - don't get the X26 Pro. If excessive treble resolution is a problem, chances are you would like the D1SE, and maybe - the X18. Caveat emptor: I think both of these DACs are probably more of a 'sidegrade' compared to the DX7, but in case of the X18 I might be wrong.

Thank you very much for an excellent explanation. I am crazy about getting best possible gear as the huge consumer -- I am audioholic -- of sound and music I am. However, I dont know much what is going on on the PCB and this sort of explanation is what ppl like me need. I am now confident that I made the right choice of getting a D1SE for USD 600 incl tax and shipping.

 

[Snoopy]

Thank you very much for an excellent explanation. I am crazy about getting best possible gear as the huge consumer -- I am audioholic -- of sound and music I am. However, I dont know much what is going on on the PCB and this sort of explanation is what ppl like me need. I am now confident that I made the right choice of getting a D1SE for USD 600 incl tax and shipping.

From what I have seen you have already pretty amazing headphones and equipment to match that.

Don't worry to much about getting the absolutely very best.. you will end up paying a ridiculous amount of money for small improvements.

What I would consider since you like the cosmetic aspect of this hobby is

Getting nice headphone Stands, earpad swapping is a thing too. How about a nice looking headphone cable since you are sitting on your desk anyway.

Maybe you got those things already but I wouldn't go to crazy about DACs that meassure already pretty much perfect.

Do you use audirvana, roon ? Equilizer?

 

[MalinYamato]

From what I have seen you have already pretty amazing headphones and equipment to match that.

Don't worry to much about getting the absolutely very best.. you will end up paying a ridiculous amount of money for small improvements.

What I would consider since you like the cosmetic aspect of this hobby is

Getting nice headphone Stands, earpad swapping is a thing too. How about a nice looking headphone cable since you are sitting on your desk anyway.

Maybe you got those things already but I wouldn't go to crazy about DACs that meassure already pretty much perfect.

Do you use audirvana, roon ? Equilizer?

I use Volumio3 on a raspberry PI (Debian Linux). On it, I installed a parametric EQ module that reads a file with settings for LCD-5 and tweaks the sound accordingly. I don't think it manages to tweak MQA content though, but MQA is not important anymore because I will scrap Tidal Hifi plus for the one I like better Qobuz Studio, even thou Qubuz is more expensive as a student -- Tidal SUCKS !

 

[Snoopy]

I use Volumio3 on a raspberry PI (Debian Linux). On it, I installed a parametric EQ module that reads a file with settings for LCD-5 and tweaks the sound accordingly. I don't think it manages to tweak MQA content though, but MQA is not important anymore because I will scrap Tidal Hifi plus for the one I like better Qobuz Studio, even thou Qubuz is more expensive as a student -- Tidal SUCKS !

Tidal hifi account in Argentina costs less than 1€ per month. Just create the account with a VPN. You won't need the VPN later.

I got tidal in Argentina, YouTube premium in India (family subscription) and Netflix in Thailand (at the moment).

Works all perfectly fine. Paid for everything with my European creditcard or PayPal

 

[kiyu]

Hey,
Did you finalize and buy one? Thanks!

I did get the X18, it sounds amazing I love it.
Unfortunately, I never heard the d1se so I can't compare. but I guess it should sound really good too, you can't go wrong.


if you check the post for x18 page around 20, 23 you could see the picture.

 

[Mr.XO]

I did get the X18, it sounds amazing I love it.
Unfortunately, I never heard the d1se so I can't compare. but I guess it should sound really good too, you can't go wrong.


if you check the post for x18 page around 20, 23 you could see the picture.

Thanks!
Will check it out.

 

[MalinYamato]

Notes about Hifi-Express?
2 years ago I ordered an M500 from them and selected Europa. It was sent from storage in Denmark and arrived in 5 days. On April 2 I ordered a D1SE and selected Europa, but it appears as the unit was sent from China and has not yet arrived. Veri here had the same experience and I am pretty sure Hifi Express despite you selecting Eurpåpa, no longer ships from Amazon storage in Europa but all the way from China.

 

[Snoopy]

No surprise really. If you want to buy audio equipment from within Europe there is really only audiophonics in France.

And if you are lucky Amazon has some stuff that gets actually shipped by Amazon.

 

[MalinYamato]

No surprise really. If you want to buy audio equipment from within Europe there is really only audiophonics in France.

And if you are lucky Amazon has some stuff that gets actually shipped by Amazon.

Hifi-express, which is affiliated with SMSL, use to be delivering SMSL stuff from Denmark, but probably no more.

 

[Veri]

Hifi-express, which is affiliated with SMSL, use to be delivering SMSL stuff from Denmark, but probably no more.

I think it depends on stock but their website has no way to show that info so they fulfil however 'they can'. Or they just don't fulfil in EU anymore because it got too expensive, who knows.. On the plus side the VAT is prepaid no matter what you choose (AliExpress and most big stores are smart like that).

 

[MalinYamato]

I think it depends on stock but their website has no way to show that info so they fulfil however 'they can'. Or they just don't fulfil in EU anymore because it got too expensive, who knows.. On the plus side the VAT is prepaid no matter what you choose (AliExpress and most big stores are smart like that).

that is a reasonable explanation of what is going on -- to use Amazon storage is expensive and SMSL probably changes their delivery systems to deliver from China directly instead. Politically, I hate Amazon for abusing the working class and for ruthless global colonial-style sucking capitalism and therefore welcome Hifi-Express's departure from dealing with Amazon, but still, Hifi Express should tell us, consumers, about their change. As an extreme Amazon hater, I would understand their change and accept all the delays associated with it.