JBL 4367 review by Erin

[Vladimir Filevski]

Aren't we comparing BMS 4590/92nd to JBL 4367's compression driver JBL 2430K D2 ?

Untill we have 112dB/1m measurements of other drivers, we don't know if they distort less, more or much more than BMS 4590/92nd.

As far as i'm concerned, this forum is oriented on home listening regardless of intended purpose of measured audio equipment. I personally couldn't care less how BMS, or any other driver, behaves/measures/sounds at 112dB/1m.

But we do have measurement on many, many other professional compression drivers done from 105 to 112 dB at 1m - that is how we know the BMS 4590 is about the worst of them in the frequency range from 7 kHz to 20 kHz! On the other hand, we also know 4590 is about the best of them in frequency range from 500 Hz to 5 kHz!
It was you who give the example of JTR Noesis 212RT, which uses BMS 4590 coaxial driver. Factory spec for Noesis 212RT efficiency is 98 dB/1W/1m. Simple mathematics tell us this: only 25 W in 98 dB/1W/1m gives SPL=112 dB/1m !!!
And the review (your link) says this about the amplification used in the review:
" I used a Yamaha R-N803 network 2-channel receiver (140 wpc 4ohm), a Cherry Amplifier 2-channel MEGAschino (600 wpc 4ohms), and an Acurus A200 (400 wpc 4ohm)." !!!
At least the reviewer do care how the JTR Noesis 212RT sounds at 112 dB/1m, and beyond.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

I found that IM of horns/drivers do *not* follow the high H2. Even with HD2 as high as 5% the IM was well below 0,1%. I wonder why that is!

Something is wrong with your measurements.

 

[Zvu]

But we do have measurement on many, many other professional compression drivers done from 105 to 112 dB at 1m - that is how we know the BMS 4590 is about the worst of them in the frequency range from 7 kHz to 20 kHz!...

Where are they ? You constantly say we have something but i haven't seen it.

....
It was you who give the example of JTR Noesis 212RT, which uses BMS 4590 coaxial driver. Factory spec for Noesis 212RT efficiency is 98 dB/1W/1m. Simple mathematics tell us this: only 25 W in 98 dB/1W/1m gives SPL=112 dB/1m !!!

I know i have. I'm not senile... Yet Why would i put 25W in loudspeaker that is 98dB/1W/1m sensitive ? And actually, there is two of them... I'm not trying to damage my hearing. I'm trying to enjoy some music.

" I used a Yamaha R-N803 network 2-channel receiver (140 wpc 4ohm), a Cherry Amplifier 2-channel MEGAschino (600 wpc 4ohms), and an Acurus A200 (400 wpc 4ohm)." !!!
At least the reviewer do care how the JTR Noesis 212RT sounds at 112 dB/1m, and beyond.

Again, why would i care what some reviewer wrote about something ? When i want data, i look at measurements, not subjective opinions.

I've shown you measurements of BMS 4590 that are at least as good as JBL D2340K distortion wise.

I'm still waiting for you to point me to valid comparative measurements of number of compression drivers where 4590 would be worst. Then we can discuss it.

 

[jhaider]

ps: don't You admit that the principle design as 15" plus CD horn lense is a bit dated? For my humble evaluation design from leftovers I'm going 5 (five) way. For a reason, be assured. JBL will follow

Harman already offers Revel Salon2 and F328Be and subwoofers to match, so why not offer something with a different set of compromises through JBL?

Also, look what's on the cover of the May 2022 Stereophile!

 

[fredoamigo]

The discussions on the price of these loudspeakers make me smile because under the pretext that some of the components are in sales, that the design 2 ways seems relatively simple, some allow themselves to think that it would be thus very simple to make more or less the same thing for 10 times less expensive. I agree on the fact that it is expensive but expensive is relative... expensive compared to what?... without speaking about some productions purely "audiophile" B&W or Wilson, look for example at what ATC or PMC offers to you for the price of the 4367? with what result?
So yes, a really experienced handyman will be able to do almost the same thing and even if it is not really the same thing, the Ikea effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect will finish to convince him that he made exceptional speakers.

 

[fineMen]

Harman already offers Revel Salon2 and F328Be and subwoofers to match, so why not offer something with a different set of compromises through JBL?

Also, look what's on the cover of the May 2022 Stereophile!

Just another time travel, now to the future, that the 4376 took me. May '22? And the magazine is already sold used (used for what?!) on ebay ...

Anecdote: when JBL offered their "symmetric drive" basses, the main competitor EV argued, that a too clean tone would take away from the excitement.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Where are they ? You constantly say we have something but i haven't seen it.

I'm still waiting for you to point me to valid comparative measurements of number of compression drivers where 4590 would be worst. Then we can discuss it.

OK. Links - detailed measurements:

https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...dymium-compression-driver-from-eighteen-sound
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-a-1-4-pro-sound-compression-driver-from-eighteen-sound
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eighteen-sound-nd1tp-compression-driver-and-xt120-horn
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-the-140fcd-1-compression-driver-from-redcatt
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-oberton-nd45-pro-sound-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eminence-n314x-textreme-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/the-celestion-cdx14-3040-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-radian-audio-835pb-1-4-ferrite-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-oberton-nd72ct-hb-1-4-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-lavoce-df10-172k-1-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-celestion-cdx1-1732-1-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-radian-audio-engineering-475pb-1-inch-compression-driver
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-celestion-cdx14-2420-1-4-compression-driver

And many, many others...

 

[fineMen]

OK. Links - detailed measurements:
...
And many, many others...

I have several BMS4550, all do good, very nice sound, clean transparent, mellow and detailed--if e/q'ed accordingly to flat, which is very easy to do. I compares well to JBL's 4" drivers (2" and 1.5" exit) ... and many others that passed by, but 4550 was the keeper.

We all know that the rise in HD2 is due to non-linear air, and depends nearly only on the compression ratio (*not* diaphragm size versus exit size!) , which again determines the effectiveness of the horn/drive combo. It is a compromise most often leaning towards more SPL.

But, as You told us to be semi-professional, what about Your very experience with the intermodulation? You said that IM follows the rise in HD2. My amateurish measurements, to my astonishment, tell the contrary. I couldn't get IM out of my BMS4550/horn combo. And if there was some, it was the microphone! Same before with EV's HR90 (very old, very bad) and some crappy driver which name doesn't come to my mind.

 

[Zvu]

OK. Links - detailed measurements:

.................

And many, many others...

Those are all done at 104dB/1m, not at 112dB/1m and most of them have high 2nd harmonic at 10kHz (over 3-4%).
I don't see 4590/92nd measured at 104dB to be able to compare it to others.

 

[tuga]

Those are all done at 104dB/1m, not at 112dB/1m and most of them have high 2nd harmonic at 10kHz (over 3-4%).
I don't see 4590/92nd measured at 104dB to be able to compare it to others.

Is distortion at 112dB/1m important for anything other than PA?

 

[Zvu]

Is distortion at 112dB/1m important for anything other than PA?

Of course not. This is more of an offtopic discusion than something of relevance for home listening. I wrote what i think about ultra high level of loudness here:

Why would i put 25W in a loudspeaker that is 98dB/1W/1m sensitive ? And actually, there is two of them... I'm not trying to damage my hearing. I'm trying to enjoy some music.

Mr Filevski insists that BMS 4592 somehow has the worst measuring distortion (2nd harmonic to be exact) so i'm trying to find out if his claims have some merit or not. He asked what pair of loudspeakers have similar sensitivity, measure as good and cost much less than JBL 4367 and i mentioned JTR Noesis 212RT. As far as i'm concerned case is closed. Everything after that is just chit chat.

 

[Bjorn]

Is distortion at 112dB/1m important for anything other than PA?

For those who listen at good distances and at loud volumes, it likely does. I have visited people who enjoyed turning up the volume in the listening position to over 105 dB for short periods of time.

 

[Zvu]

Well, that results in hearing damage in less than 5 minutes.

Fidelity and distortion of few percents are of the least concerns for that guy.

 

[gnarly]

The discussions on the price of these loudspeakers make me smile because under the pretext that some of the components are in sales, that the design 2 ways seems relatively simple, some allow themselves to think that it would be thus very simple to make more or less the same thing for 10 times less expensive.

I've built enough speakers now, to know the design is relatively simple to make, using drivers and construction at least equal to the design.

And frankly, the box as is, could easily be improved by taking it active, and ditching the passive xover.

It could be bi-amped, using FIR processing to further smooth out the frequency response. A linear phase xover could be used to play with xover orders and frequency hoping for better polar optimizations. While at the same time eliminating any phase rotation or group delay above the bottom end rolloff.

For the bottom end, where the bass-reflex design is almost surely being protected from potential overecursion below port tuning frequency by a high-pass filter, I would add frequency dependent processing that doesn't put a hpf in place until there is a risk of over excursion.
This would significantly reduce bottom end group delay / phase rotation, and still protect the speaker. Make it more like sealed.

So yes, a really experienced handyman will be able to do almost the same thing and even if it is not really the same thing, the Ikea effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect will finish to convince him that he made exceptional speakers.

I'm sure the IKEA effect is real....and i'm sure i've no doubt suffered from it, and no doubt will occasionally continue to suffer from it, on some of my more exotic build/experiments.
But not on this guy we're discussing...it's a really simple speaker

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Those are all done at 104dB/1m, not at 112dB/1m and most of them have high 2nd harmonic at 10kHz (over 3-4%).
I don't see 4590/92nd measured at 104dB to be able to compare it to others.

Simply - not true!

Eighteen Sound NSD1424BTN:

Radian 835BP:

I don't have time to extract all measured graphs to show that you are wrong for all drivers from the links I posted, but I think above two are enough to prove my point.
Yes, all measurements from Voice Coil Test Bench are done at 104 dB/1m, so it can not be directly compared to the top octave of BMS 4590, which is factory measured at 112 dB/1m. But we can compare it to the measurements of many professional loudspeakers from tests in Production Partner magazine, for example Voice Acoustics CXN16, which uses B&C DE980TN compression driver - from 2 Hz to 10 kHz it measured less than 3% at the SPL=118 dB THD (not only 2nd harmonic!):

Production Partner magazine tests all professional loudspeakers for max SPL at 3% THD and 10% THD - that is how I know BMS 4590 is one of the worst contenders regarding distortion from 7 kHz and up.
At SPL=112dB/1m BMS 4590 has 6.3% 2nd harmonic distortion at 7 kHz and 8.9% at 10 kHz - compare that with all loudspeakers measured in Production Partner magazine.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Mr Filevski insists that BMS 4592 somehow has the worst measuring distortion (2nd harmonic to be exact) so i'm trying to find out if his claims have some merit or not. He asked what pair of loudspeakers have similar sensitivity, measure as good and cost much less than JBL 4367 and i mentioned JTR Noesis 212RT. As far as i'm concerned case is closed. Everything after that is just chit chat.

I proved that BMS 4590 has one of the worst distortion measured from 7 kHz and up - so as far I am concerned, that case is closed. But I also wrote that it is one of the best drivers for frequencies between 600 Hz and 6 kHz.
Yes, JTR Noesis 212RT is an excellent loudspeaker with much lower price than JBL 4367 and it measured as good, if we don't count distortion from 7 kHz and up. Does it has any consequences in sound quality above 7 kHz at SPL levels usual for home listening, I don't know. Nor @Zvu.

Edit:
Actually, I asked if there is a 15"+horn competitor to JBL 4367:

there are no competitors (15" + horn) with the same qualities, but at lower cost.

I may be overly pedantic/nitpicking, but in a view of comparing apples to apples, JTR Noesis 212RT is not 15"+horn (2-way), but 2x12"+coaxial horn (3-way). Anyway, if top two octaves are with the same sound quality as JBL 4367, we have a winner.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Is distortion at 112dB/1m important for anything other than PA?

Professional compression drivers are tested at high levels, adequate for their use. Comparing measured distortion at high SPL we can select those with lower distortion. At domestic SPL levels, that distortion will be even lower. Why not to select drivers with the lowest distortion - for home use?

 

[tuga]

Professional compression drivers are tested at high levels, adequate for their use. Comparing measured distortion at high SPL we can select those with lower distortion. At domestic SPL levels, that distortion will be even lower. Why not to select drivers with the lowest distortion - for home use?

Is this a general rule, that drivers which produce comparatively less distortion at 112dB/1m will also produce comparatively less distortion at 104dB/1m or 96dB/1m?

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

In general, yes.

 

[Pio]

Look at those gorgeous cover model JBLs