• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

JBL 4367 review by Erin

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
I guess you meant HAF ?
I somehow always thought that in gay marriage those things get easier. You live and learn.
Well, talk to your husband then. Allow him to see the benefits of cool hifi.
Yes, I meant HAF, lapsus calami.
I don't get your words after that. Why did you mention gay marriage??? English is not my native language - does acronym HAN has any connection with the gay community? It was simple lapsus calami, sorry.
I am happily married with my woman... real woman (XX chromosome). Why would anyone (wrongly) assume that if some man finds some big loudspeaker ugly and too big for the room, he must be a gay???
 
Last edited:

Zvu

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
830
Likes
1,416
Location
Serbia
English is not my native language either, so i gathered you wrote that your husband doesn't like the looks: HAF -9.

I obviously misunderstood you. Sorry for that :)
 

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,907
Likes
13,908
Location
North Alabama
Erin needs to work on his numbers. a 6inch woofer does not beam above1khz, nor does a 15inch beam above 400hz. multiply that by 2.

Nope. 1/4 wavelength is actually the right answer but for quick ballparks I use 1/2 wave.

This has been discussed ad nauseam and finally — after Tom Danley posted it on this forum - people finally relented. I don’t know why folks insist on using full wave when that is certainly not the appropriate calculation. All you need to do is look at frequency response on and off axis of a single drive unit which I have shown and tested countless times before. 1/4 wave is correct. 1/2 wave is closer to acceptable because you can’t physically place drivers in typical designs closer than that.

Edit: link for your info:
 
Last edited:

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
English is not my native language either, so i gathered you wrote that your husband doesn't like the looks: HAF -9.
I obviously misunderstood you. Sorry for that :)
OK, but I think words "wife" and "husband" in the same sentence unequivocally means female+male marriage.
 

Absolute

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
1,084
Likes
2,125
While I certainly agree that this price for some simple wooden boxes with more or less generic drivers plus a waveguide is outrageous in a value for money vs DIY sense, I would prefer it if we left those discussions outside of review threads. It's not a relevant discussion for potential customers.
Most adults have their own scale to weigh price and performance vs value due to different priorities and life situations, so let's try to keep that bit in a relative sense instead of an absolute one.
For insights about value in a review-thread it makes sense to compare the performance to relevant competitors in the market instead of our own perception of value.

For me personally I was most interested in a comparison against its brother, the M2. Looking at the relative graphs I think the M2 looks to have a better controlled waveguide because it behaves better at far off-axis angles. Comparing the 40 degree angle alone shows my point, but I also wonder if the diffraction artifacts above 50 degrees in the 4367 could partially explain some of the distinct sounds Erin heard?

SPL%20Horizontal.png

SPL%20Horizontal.png
 

fineMen

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
1,504
Likes
679
OK, but I think words "wife" and "husband" in the same sentence unequivocally means female+male marriage.

Uups, my significant other (XX so far) isn't revolted by similarly bulky speaker boxes. Now I wonder why that is.

Regarding the up-mark, please do not forget, that the common highfi buff, let alone the whiney audiophile, isn't the target group for the speakers in question.

They say: if You want the JBL logo on a full sized legacy looking, legacy sounding main monitor for Your final presentation of the ordered christmas jingle to the paying CEOs, You cannot go cheaper, Period. If You're big enough to place such things in Your acceptance room, the cost will come back multiple times in a month. It has to!

If You want such a beast for Your home to comfort Your company, do it yourself. As a smart guy, You wouldn't bother with a passive crossover, but go for DSP anyway. Maybe You're genius and depart from the two-way legacy alltogether, aim for a three- to four-way, rendering the discussions here regarding the excellence of '4367' obsolete.
 
Last edited:

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
I admit, my English is not so good and I don't quite understand your post. But I think you forget something very important - this site/forum is for reviewing/testing commercial equipment, not DIY equipment.
There is another, very good forum diyaudio.com where you can discuss about commercial to DIY loudspeakers comparison.
 

mightycicadalord

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 10, 2021
Messages
542
Likes
555
I admit, my English is not so good and I don't quite understand your post. But I think you forget something very important - this site/forum is for reviewing/testing commercial equipment, not DIY equipment.
There is another, very good forum diyaudio.com where you can discuss about commercial to DIY loudspeakers comparison.

Guess you missed all the DIY stuff Amir measured and all the users providing their own info on DIY speakers.

I figured this site was for people who wanted to learn about audio, but I could be wrong.
 

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
Guess you missed all the DIY stuff Amir measured and all the users providing their own info on DIY speakers.
I figured this site was for people who wanted to learn about audio, but I could be wrong.
Oh, we certainly have different definition about DIY stuff - in the spirit of several recent posts in this thread, where some members declared they can design, make and sell their own DIY loudspeaker which will be better than JBL 4367, or at least equal, but much cheaper.
Loudspeakers built by DIY enthusiast generally are not intended for sale, but for "selfish" enjoyment.
I do know amirm tested commercial loudspeaker kits designed and made by companies, intended for DIY enthusiasts to assemble them. But designing and building loudspeakers from scratch by enthusiasts is a very different animal, and in my view that is the real DIY stuff.

I am glad I am not alone about DIY vs commercial loudspeakers theme:
While I certainly agree that this price for some simple wooden boxes with more or less generic drivers plus a waveguide is outrageous in a value for money vs DIY sense, I would prefer it if we left those discussions outside of review threads. It's not a relevant discussion for potential customers.
 
Last edited:

mightycicadalord

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 10, 2021
Messages
542
Likes
555
I don't really see the point in trying to police what people talk about here. Just ignore the stuff you don't want to discuss. The sites format allows multiple discussions to happen at once in the same thread.

Welp, that guy would prefer some things, but this site isn't about appeasing your guys preferences. You just have to deal with what people want to talk about because it's open to the public. You should make your own forum if you're unhappy with the direction of discussions here.
 

gnarly

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
990
Likes
1,390
You forget to include the cost of the horn (which you can not buy from JBL!), the cost of the R&D of that horn and the cost of the R&D of the crossover.
Yes, you can use other horn, design your own crossover for the cost of peanuts... so, why you are not doing that? It seems so easy to wipe the floor with JBL 4367, to dominate the market with your clone and to earn big money even with your not excessive markup...

Yes, there are other horns that will work fine, especially since the 4357 horn has over a 2:1 aspect ratio.
Xover R&D is indeed peanuts and quick.....for JBL as well as for me.
And yes, i have done it........and no, i could care less about ruining a great hobby trying to 'earn big money'.
To beat the JBL 4367 you have to be much cheaper, with good marketing, good distribution network, good ... everything - which cost big, big money! So, not so easy as someone might think.
Acid test: is there any legit company to sell the JBL 4367 "clone", capable of surviving several years on the market? I don't think so.

Absolutely there are....similar performing offerings from prosound companies like Meyer, Fulcrum Acoustic, Alcons, D&B, L'Acoustic....on and on
 

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
And yes, i have done it........and no, i could care less about ruining a great hobby trying to 'earn big money'.
So, you didn't try to sell your clones to earn the money? Well - that was exactly my point!
Absolutely there are....similar performing offerings from prosound companies like Meyer, Fulcrum Acoustic, Alcons, D&B, L'Acoustic....on and on
Models and prices? Just two or three models, please?
 

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
I don't really see the point in trying to police what people talk about here. Just ignore the stuff you don't want to discuss. The sites format allows multiple discussions to happen at once in the same thread.

Welp, that guy would prefer some things, but this site isn't about appeasing your guys preferences. You just have to deal with what people want to talk about because it's open to the public. You should make your own forum if you're unhappy with the direction of discussions here.
I don't try to stop the DIY vs commercial loudspeaker discussion, but I really don't see the point in it - it is just not logical to compare prices of DIY vs commercial stuff. What if someone is inept for DIY, or simply don't wont to do it and rather would happily buy commercial stuff (although it is much more expensive)? Is he mad?
It is logical and desirable to compare which DIY loudspeaker design is better (for the same price) or cheaper (for the same sound quality) than other DIY loudspeaker design, and, of course, how they (both) compare to commercial loudspeakers.
 
Last edited:

fineMen

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
1,504
Likes
679
So, you didn't try to sell your clones to earn the money? Well - that was exactly my point!

Models and prices? Just two or three models, please?

Hi Vladimir,

I didn't hold my vast stock of raw JBL (!!) speaker drivers against the high margin, that is obviously realised with the '4367'. To the contrary. The price is justified by a specific demand of the addressed demographic. Namely professionals, studio owners and the like.

Harman/JBL serves a real need for such product which again quite obviously follows the legacy of this rightfully respected brand!

The idea of a potent two-way using controlled directivity horn lenses was, back in the day, genius. JBL's 15" drivers spelled unrivaled excellence[1]. Even today it would become a hard job to find something better than these, now 40y old mothballs.

... it is just not logical to compare prices of DIY vs commercial stuff.

I only mentioned DIY, because the basics of such a two-way are well understood. With DSP it is a no-brainer to DIY it. That was for the folks who are hit by the literally, maybe intentionally exclusive price of the '4367'.

/*
Add.: first semester economics, how 2 design a price

- for simplicity assume same total cost regardless of quantity (e/g coffee)
- sell much for lower price
- sell little for higher price
* makes same profit, because higher price compensates for lower sells

So here, cost is already (!) spent for development, decide to keep it up-market with high price, high margin per pice, but not to exaggerate profit, just reducing risk with selling to few people who, from experience, are assured to be willing to pay ... economics.
*/

[1] Believe it or not, I still feel the p-a-i-n when I first read the price for a single, all so fancy but raw JBL2226 in the early 80ies. My jaw dropped right down to earth's core, unbelievable! It must be for a dozen, and still they are kidding me.
 
Last edited:

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
first semester economics, how 2 design a price

for simplicity assume same total cost regardless of quantity (e/g coffee)
- sell much for lower price
- sell little for higher price
* makes same profit, because higher price compensates for lower sells
So, according to you JBL chose second busines model - sell little for higher price. OK, it seems logical... but...
Maybe I am a little naive about economics, but I think your example (sell little for higher price) is OK only if JBL is the one and only loudspeaker company in the world. But we all know there are many other (equally) respectful and big companies, capable of choosing the first business model (sell much for lower price). What will happen then?
Let say company XYZ designed Model 5478 to compete with JBL 4367, which would be no problem, because XYZ 5478 has the same sound quality as JBL 4367 and similar aesthetic, but has way lower price (business model "sell much for lower price"). What will happen with the JBL 4367 then? Of course, JBL 4367 will vanish in a single day ... or JBL will be forced to drop the price of 4367 dramatically to mach the price of the competitor, more or less. Because that didn't happen to this day...
 
Last edited:

Vladimir Filevski

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
550
Likes
712
Last edited:

iMickey503

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2021
Messages
405
Likes
659
Location
United States PDX
[1] Believe it or not, I still feel the p-a-i-n when I first read the price for a single, all so fancy but raw JBL2226 in the early 80ies. My jaw dropped right down to earth's core, unbelievable! It must be for a dozen, and still they are kidding me.

If you think about it? Seems JBL speakers have done better as a commodity then the US fiat dollar with regards to inflation.


.....
It is logical and desirable to compare which DIY loudspeaker design is better (for the same price) or cheaper (for the same sound quality) than other DIY loudspeaker design, and, of course, how they (both) compare to commercial loudspeakers.
Valid point!
Likewise, a Formula One Grand Prix car is superior specification wise on "Paper" until you try to get Groceries with it.

I admit, my English is not so good and I don't quite understand your post.
57a.jpg

I feel the same way about numbers and counting backwards.
 

fineMen

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
1,504
Likes
679
Maybe I am a little naive about economics, but I think your example (sell little for higher price) is OK only if JBL is the one and only loudspeaker company in the world.

Your argument is valid, "only if JBL" could be copied in that the same or a reasonably similar product can be offered by somebody else. As You emphasize many times, that isn't the case.

If somebody else would do like JBL did and develop a competent main monitor, the same dilemma occurs. How to assure the profit? Big numbers in volume, or alternatively in price? How many people are willing to spend that much real estate for the footprint of a maximised studio main monitor? How predictable (sic!) is the decision making of these people?

You contradict yourself.

The label !JBL alone makes the difference. At least for the intended customer, namely the professional studio operator. Think of the crucial presentation of a recording, that should lead to the acceptance by the orderer. Big room, about 5 external CEOs plus engineer plus studio owner, musicians perhaps. And not the least, that massive, incorruptable JBL speakers, granting for quality.

I personally don't think the excellence of JBL's still is that outstanding. But that isn't the point. What counts is the belief of the intended audience. They accept the up-market price policy along their own indisputable reasoning.

And again, the enthusiast, after all the qualified 'scientific' and critical discussions reiterated in this thread, shall be competent enough to DIY an even better product. Or chose something else. May it be the bargain '4277'. It has the advantage to be designed, as a cinema loudspeaker, to not be seen.
 
Last edited:

Kvalsvoll

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Audio Company
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
878
Likes
1,643
Location
Norway
While I certainly agree that this price for some simple wooden boxes with more or less generic drivers plus a waveguide is outrageous in a value for money vs DIY sense, I would prefer it if we left those discussions outside of review threads. It's not a relevant discussion for potential customers.
Most adults have their own scale to weigh price and performance vs value due to different priorities and life situations, so let's try to keep that bit in a relative sense instead of an absolute one.
For insights about value in a review-thread it makes sense to compare the performance to relevant competitors in the market instead of our own perception of value.

For me personally I was most interested in a comparison against its brother, the M2. Looking at the relative graphs I think the M2 looks to have a better controlled waveguide because it behaves better at far off-axis angles. Comparing the 40 degree angle alone shows my point, but I also wonder if the diffraction artifacts above 50 degrees in the 4367 could partially explain some of the distinct sounds Erin heard?

SPL%20Horizontal.png

SPL%20Horizontal.png
Measurements can tell a lot, when enough information is presented. Here, the top speaker is overall better, because it has better pattern control and better directivity, bottom speaker will likely sound bright.

The difference is caused by wider baffle for the top speaker, at lower freq, then the horn has better directivity in mid and up.

About the "matching-woofer-to-horn" at crossover: This can not be done when you have a horn with very different pattern from the direct radiator woofer. And the woofer does not suddenly start to beam at some frequency, the radiation pattern changes gradually. Fortunately, it does not need to be perfect to be able to present reasonable sound quality.

This is the classic old-school. Big woofer, horn on top. Usually comes with great dynamic capacity and much better directivity compared to the typical small and narrow speakers. Add a decent bass-system for below 100hz or so, mount a high-quality horn tweeter on top, if you still can hear the highs, use dsp to put it together.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom