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PS Audio P12 Review Part 2: Power Testing

Doodski

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Moving some theoretical numbers around as per the P12 regen unit and if using a unregulated linear supply.

NOTE: Using RMS wattage figures so they match what amp manufacturers quote for power specs:

Example #1 is a 50WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 28.3V rails @ 3.5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~25.75V rail voltages @ 3.2A peak = ~41.4WRMS.

Example #2 is a 100WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 40V rails @ 5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~36.4V rail voltages @ 4.5A peak = ~82.8WRMS.

Example #3 is a 200WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 56.6V rails @ 7.1A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~51.5V rail voltages @ 6.4A peak = ~165.8WRMS. (Note rounding error.)

If using the P12 regen unit to maintain a steady theoretical 120VAC mains then I suppose at the power limits of the amp(s) there might be a noticeable sound difference but it's doubtful.

NOTE: @amirm found the P12 to decrease the power output when using the HC output @ ~7% less AC mains voltage.
 
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solderdude

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The CXA81 thread was typical, 95% or something of people gave it a thumbs down, but all the people who have owned one, like me, think it's a great product.

It merely shows people are not as discriminate as measuring gear when it comes to certain types of distortion. It does not show human hearing trumps measurements.

Phono amplifiers do also vary quite a lot, but there are some very good moderately priced ones about, and some very good expensive ones as well.

Yep, they all have slightly different cartridge loading and all kind of deviate from true RIAA correction. Some have lots of headroom others don't.

If using the P12 regen unit to maintain a steady theoretical 120VAC mains then I suppose at the power limits of the amp(s) there might be a noticeable sound difference but it's doubtful.

Math says there will be 0.8dB difference in peak power. That also would only be audible when the amp would be driven to its clipping point.
That 0.8dB isn't the most audible difference when clipping the amp.
 
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antcollinet

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2. Assuming expectation bias, which certainly did not exist when I heard the effect of a regenerator, because I didn't know it was being used.
You thought you were hearing a different amp. That expectation can (and probably did) impact what you heard. You wouldn't even haven needed to think you were hearing a different amp - just the possibility that something might have changed.

Most of your hearing happens in the wetware between your ears - not actually in your ears. It is influenced by all sorts of things you might not expect.
 

restorer-john

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Math says there will be 0.8dB difference in peak power. That also would only be audible when the amp would be driven to its clipping point.
That 0.8dB isn't the most audible difference when clipping the amp.

All the more reason to state/measure or adjust the mains voltage when testing amplifiers for power output. Stereophile does it. I do it for all my vintage restorations and record the mains voltage at the time as it can vary between 219V and 251V here. Our nominal is 230V (down from a previous nominal of 240V). Right now, it is 241V at my lab bench (unloaded). I can bring it up or down with the Variac, but big amps exceed the variac's ratings.

The difference in tested power output on a high voltage day (lots of feed-in solar pushing up the grid voltage) or an early evening (when everyone is cooking) can be either falling short on power spec or exceeding it by a wide margin.

@Doodski , your examples above are a bit simplistic. You have not considered the non-linear voltage drops across the bridge rectifiers or the OPTs depending on voltage and current.

Bottom line is this: A stable, precise and well regulated mains supply is much better than a wildly varying, distorted and variable impedance mains source. The 11kV pole mount transformer in our street is 500M away and the two phases service 17 homes above the transformer and about the same below. I had to have the energy provider change taps as our line voltage was out of the standard allowed deviation over the prescribed period. That was at the poles, not after the drop to my house.
 

CinDyment

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I didn't carry out any mods. I was comparing two models, looked identical, one was a factory upgrade of the other. The old and new versions were available to listen to at the same time. Some sound was indistinguishable, but others were notably different. I was using quite specific sounds rather than complex music, mainly metallic and percussive. One surprise was that the speakers could resolve these differences (although at a dealer, the speakers were the same model as I had at home at the time). If I hadn't been able to hear a difference it would have saved me some money!

I have fooled myself many times over the years with the same ad-hoc testing. Unless you level match and blind test, you really can't trust yourself. Not clear what your protocol was. Then again, maybe something was flawed with the original and this fixed the issue.
 

CinDyment

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That was quite a busy time. You had the likes of Linn and Primare spending years on their own power supply designs, Bel Canto was an early Class D user with B&O ICE Power and then nCore doing bespoke designs for the highest bidder, Putzeys saving his best designs for his own Mola Mola brand so staying a few years ahead of the competition. Also Devialet came along, which was basically formed on the back of a SMPS designed by a Nortel mobile phone engineer, and they now about power supplies. Devialet will deny their Class A/D hybrid amplifier is based on Quad's patented current dumper, but it seems to work on the same principle. The Devialet website says the power supply needs power in the range 50 - 270Vac ~ 40/70 Hz, so a couple of volts difference from a P12 regenerator isn't going to do a lot.

SMPS and Class-D share some similarities, but being able to design an SMPS does not mean you can design a Class-D amplifier. "Mobile phone engineer" sounds like a quite meaningless call to authority. I would hope they mean mobile phone infrastructure as Nortel didn't do cell (mobile) phones, and anything on that end is low power DC-DC. That is just meaningless marketing spin.

I like the Devialet concepts for implementation, but they are certainly not immune to hyperbole vis-a-vis this little bit of marketing. Definitely falls into the realm of over selling. I do get a kick out of the claims, which I am sure are very good, but having a thermally stable DAC (which means little), when the drivers in my speaker are all over the place thermally ... well



1648217404816.png
 

MaxBuck

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The Linn Chakra power supply in the original 2007 version had a very dry and unengaging sound.
Come on, now. The only sound any power supply is a mains-frequency-specific hum.

And what in the world is an "unengaging" sound? This is pure audiophool drivel. Your credibility is on the same trajectory as the lead car after the apex at the Millennium Force.
 

CinDyment

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Come on, now. The only sound any power supply is a mains-frequency-specific hum.

And what in the world is an "unengaging" sound? This is pure audiophool drivel. Your credibility is on the same trajectory as the lead car after the apex at the Millennium Force.

I have ridden that ride.
 

CinDyment

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Moving some theoretical numbers around as per the P12 regen unit and if using a unregulated linear supply.

NOTE: Using RMS wattage figures so they match what amp manufacturers quote for power specs:

Example #1 is a 50WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 28.3V rails @ 3.5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~25.75V rail voltages @ 3.2A peak = ~41.4WRMS.

Example #2 is a 100WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 40V rails @ 5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~36.4V rail voltages @ 4.5A peak = ~82.8WRMS.

Example #3 is a 200WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 56.6V rails @ 7.1A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~51.5V rail voltages @ 6.4A peak = ~165.8WRMS. (Note rounding error.)

If using the P12 regen unit to maintain a steady theoretical 120VAC mains then I suppose at the power limits of the amp(s) there might be a noticeable sound difference but it's doubtful.

NOTE: @amirm found the P12 to decrease the power output when using the HC output @ ~7% less AC mains voltage.

You can just estimate the difference as (110^2) / (120^2). It will be close enough. The actual drop will be a bit smaller due the drop of the diodes reflected back to AC voltage, so it may be closer to (109.5^2) / (119.5^2), which is close enough to be the same as to be the same.
 

egellings

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If a device has a poorly performing internal power supply, feeding that device with the most perfectly generated sine wave AC power will not fix that. (Sine wave AC: I'm firing for effect! Ex & current artillerymen will know what that means.)
 

SuicideSquid

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All the more reason to state/measure or adjust the mains voltage when testing amplifiers for power output. Stereophile does it. I do it for all my vintage restorations and record the mains voltage at the time as it can vary between 219V and 251V here. Our nominal is 230V (down from a previous nominal of 240V). Right now, it is 241V at my lab bench (unloaded). I can bring it up or down with the Variac, but big amps exceed the variac's ratings.

The difference in tested power output on a high voltage day (lots of feed-in solar pushing up the grid voltage) or an early evening (when everyone is cooking) can be either falling short on power spec or exceeding it by a wide margin.

@Doodski , your examples above are a bit simplistic. You have not considered the non-linear voltage drops across the bridge rectifiers or the OPTs depending on voltage and current.

Bottom line is this: A stable, precise and well regulated mains supply is much better than a wildly varying, distorted and variable impedance mains source. The 11kV pole mount transformer in our street is 500M away and the two phases service 17 homes above the transformer and about the same below. I had to have the energy provider change taps as our line voltage was out of the standard allowed deviation over the prescribed period. That was at the poles, not after the drop to my house.

Okay, but under normal listening conditions, this never actually translates into an audible difference. You may be right that using a device like the PS Audio P12 might extend the lifespan of some components, but this doesn't really make financial sense to me - I'd rather spend a few hundred dollars in 20 years to have my amplifier re-capped than to spend thousands of dollars on a device that will save me a few hundred dollars in 20 years.
 

Xulonn

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This was one of the things I wanted my P12 for. Where I live in North America my voltage as gone between 109-129V. It hasn't killed anything outright, but no doubt it stresses some components.
It's got to hurt knowing that you could have protected your electronics (surge + AVR) for about $65 with an APC AVR versus the $5,000 price of a fancy toy like the PS Audio P12 that is loaded with features you don't need. Or you might could use two or three of them if you use power-hungry old fashioned inefficient audio gear.
APC 1200VA rRgulator.jpg

Even the Panamax 5102 will give you many of the features and performance of the P12 for about $850.
Panamax M5102.jpg
----------------------
Personally, I use a $75 CDP 1000VA UPS with AVR and surge protection, and it's load includes my EL34 class-A push-pull vacuum tube space heater amplifier. But the power-hungry amp is not on a backup-outlet, rather surge protection only. Sometimes I hear the relay in the UPS click on-off quickly 10 times or more per day, and there are several outages every week that usually last no longer than a minute or two, and a couple of multi-hour outages almost every month. Our power here in Panama seems to be a nominal 127vac like Mexico, and varies between about 117v and 128v.
 
OP
amirm

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Okay, but under normal listening conditions, this never actually translates into an audible difference. You may be right that using a device like the PS Audio P12 might extend the lifespan of some components, but this doesn't really make financial sense to me - I'd rather spend a few hundred dollars in 20 years to have my amplifier re-capped than to spend thousands of dollars on a device that will save me a few hundred dollars in 20 years.
Adding on, the odds of P12 lasting 20 years without repair is extremely low. This is a high-voltage, high power linear amp.
 

solderdude

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I'll explain some things most people may not know about mains and drawn power. Audio gear is quite different from resistive loads (used in the 'proper test' Paul did :))
I'll try to explain this as simple as possible but for people not knowing about ohms law it may be too technical.

The internal amp can deliver about 35V AC (most likely, possibly somewhat less even) and has peak current limiting of 30A (so 1kW short momentary peaks) and about 350W output average at full load (assuming PF around 1).
For the EU version about 70V and 15A peaks, same Wattage.
The 30A peak current limit is my assumption based on the specs from PS Audio and my understanding of how the PPP works.
There is never going to be a real answer to that if its correct as PS Audio is not going to give the numbers and extensive and specialist gear would be needed to check this.

The amp inside is not working in a similar fashion as a speaker amp. This has to do with the way power is transferred into an amp.
Most of the time the internal amp does not have to deliver any current (energy) but its output voltage is changing.

Only near the peaks of the mains voltage the diodes in the rectifiers of electronics (as all audio electronics works on DC as in rectified AC) the internal amp needs to deliver current. As can be seen below about 3/4 of the time NO current is drawn and in 1/4 of the time current is drawn and the biggest chunk in about 1/3 of that time. THIS is what causes the flat-tops of mains by the way. All electronic devices in your whole street/village all draw power at the same time which sags the voltage at the tops only. Because of 3 phase mains the 'pain' to mains is spread over 3 different time moments.

An illustration is needed I suppose. A real world scope shot of a DC power rail at the smoothing caps that feeds electronics inside audio gear.

single-phase-dual-winding-dual-diode1.png

What we see above the current in the secondary (so not in the mains) of a transformer. The rectified output voltage of the DC is 25V average under a load that draws 3.3A so 82W.
What is observed is that in order to draw 3.3A (in this case 82W) the transformer has to deliver 24A in short bursts.
The loaded AC voltage into the rectifier is 19.9V and peak currents drawn are 24A peaks.

Now the output is a transformer so at 230V the winding ratio is 1:11.5 (lets forget about losses in the transformer for a moment) and 1:6 for 120V AC.
This means (for 120V) using the winding ratio of 1:6 means peaks of 4A at 120V is drawn in order to draw 82W on the DC side.
Now that DC feeds an amplifier that has a 6 ohm speaker connected to it. Class AB amps have a max efficiency of about 75% in practice so about 62W into the speaker. For this 62W output power the amp draws 82W from mains, so the current in 120V systems is 4A in very short bursts and not the 'expected' 0.7A (120V and 82W)
So a 5.7x higher peak currents than one would expect based on drawn power at the DC side compared to say an incandescent lightbulb or heater or dummy load.

What we learned here is that audio amplifiers draw short but high current peaks in short bursts and not act as a resistor or speaker.

Lets assume we use a P12 at max. output power and we use similar numbers (so ideal transformer and amplifiers driven near clipping levels) and connect 2 amps (stereo) that draw about 400W each continuous (which is a serious amp and pretty loud SPL). They are class AB amps with 75% efficiency at full power so draw 530W each meaning 1060W from the P12.

A resistive load (such as used in the wonderful demo from PS audio) at a load of 1000W (so equivalent to 2x400W into the speaker) would draw 8A.
No problem for a device that is specified for 1250W continuous.

The thing we learned above is that in order to draw the 1000W from the DC power rails the PP12 does not have to deliver 8A (like in the resistive load they use to show 'real measurements') but would have to deliver the power into the rectifier in short moments.
We saw from real world measurements of the 82W example above that in order to do so we need 5.7x higher currents in short bursts repetitive in 120Hz. 120Hz because a bridge rectifier draws power at both peaks (positive and negative).

Lets go with 5x higher peak currents than expected = 40A peaks. This would have to be delivered (and pass through) the internal amp.
The peak power it can handle is 3.6kW = 30A so while the device can handle 1.2kW continuous in a resistive load it cannot handle 1.2kW continuous in power amp output.

Now for the fortunate part.. Folks running their 400W power amps will never draw this continuously as music isn't continuous. When the amps are driven near clipping points in peaks in music the amp will draw about 50W average with music. Only in short bursts, determined by the peaks in the music which will be mostly bass transients, that 400W power will be drawn. This power comes from the internal reservoir caps and the only thing that needs to happen is the replenishing of the DC rails in the period mains provides the short current peaks.
So even when 800W peaks are drawn in music the needed 40A peaks even when limited to 30A will only cause a slight sag in the DC rails at very short moments. The MW function (as well as the flat-tops of mains) will allow a bit more time for the diodes in the bridge rectifiers to conduct so current can be a bit lower.

This means the PP12 can supply the needed power in audio systems. Maybe not continuous on a test bench but no issues with music. Even when the peak power output of very high power amps sags a tiny bit this will go unnoticed.

Here's another thing though that has to be taken into consideration. Which is the line voltage of mains will sag when amps draw this kind of power too. When the mains voltage is 120V and the connected power amps draw 40A peaks directly from mains that voltage will sag.
The HC outputs will sag more than the non HC outputs. The HC outputs are intended for high power speaker amps.
Something Paul refuses to address.

The 'power amplifier' inside the PowerPlants thus has to work very different from a speaker amp. It has to be purpose designed for this.
 
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Kevbaz

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^Yeah to be sure.^
But how much overlap?
I would expect that your forum has a lower percentage of PS Audio power supply supporters, than the PS audio forum has.

You also tested one thing of mine that was not overly glowing.

And people want solutions to problems, so some of the gear may be thought to fill l these needs… but maybe they do not help as much as they think from the literature and marketing.
I Would hope anyone who can afford this kind of device has the sense and intelligence to research before paying. A simple google search for this product leads to you this review, and in doing so will hopefully save some people their hard earned money.
Kev
 

Holmz

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Moving some theoretical numbers around as per the P12 regen unit and if using a unregulated linear supply.

NOTE: Using RMS wattage figures so they match what amp manufacturers quote for power specs:

Example #1 is a 50WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 28.3V rails @ 3.5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~25.75V rail voltages @ 3.2A peak = ~41.4WRMS.

Example #2 is a 100WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 40V rails @ 5A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~36.4V rail voltages @ 4.5A peak = ~82.8WRMS.

Example #3 is a 200WRMS/ch amp @ +/- 56.6V rails @ 7.1A peak and using a theoretical 120VAC mains.
Lets say the AC droops to 110V @ a roughly ~9% decrease.
A decrease of ~9% on the rails makes for +/- ~51.5V rail voltages @ 6.4A peak = ~165.8WRMS. (Note rounding error.)

If using the P12 regen unit to maintain a steady theoretical 120VAC mains then I suppose at the power limits of the amp(s) there might be a noticeable sound difference but it's doubtful.

NOTE: @amirm found the P12 to decrease the power output when using the HC output @ ~7% less AC mains voltage.

Chow uses unregulated supplies?
Is there a list by manufacture?


As a call to authority, I give that a 1.5/10.

And I thought the Russian gymnastic judges were tough. ;)
 
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