PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[Spkrdctr]

I'm sure glad we have the Internet to learn folk what years of college and decades of real-world engineering practice have failed to achieve... And to demonstrate how to misapply basic engineering principles for the benefit of marketing.

Don, reading the information given by PS Paul, it doesn't seem right to me at all. I am not an expert at this (audio grounds) but he is talking about putting a signal on the ground wire, or board trace that leads to ground and saying that whatever is on that ground is causing spurious tones that he can hear. I'm assuming then that shunting noise and every other thing to ground is not getting the job done. So, the ground is not really the ground. It is a path of some kind (to the amplifying circuit) to allow the spurious noise to go to the speakers. So, am I way off base on what he is saying? Or, am I right in what I think he is saying but what he is saying is true? But, if what he is saying is true, how does any electronics engineer really truly ground anything so that whatever is on the ground wire, PCB trace etc is not somehow showing back up on the output of said device and heading off to the speakers. I don't believe it one bit if I am right in my understanding of it. Sounds like snake oil to me. But, I could be wrong.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I reckon he can’t.

Oh, I know he can't.

 

[Doodski]

So, the ground is not really the ground. It is a path of some kind (to the amplifying circuit) to allow the spurious noise to go to the speakers. So, am I way off base on what he is saying? Or, am I right in what I think he is saying but what he is saying is true? But, if what he is saying is true, how does any electronics engineer really truly ground anything so that whatever is on the ground wire, PCB trace etc is not somehow showing back up on the output of said device and heading off to the speakers. I don't believe it one bit if I am right in my understanding of it. Sounds like snake oil to me. But, I could be wrong.

I read it like that too. and the harsh is buzzed.... etc.

 

[solderdude]

You know what's funny about all of this (from an engineers p.o.v.) is that the PowerPlant (which basically is a poweramp with a standard linear power supply) is to remove all 'garbage' and make a 'clean' AC on its output.

So 'dirty' mains goes through a power transformer, rectifier and into some (rather small) smoothing caps.
That rectified DC obviously is clean enough to power an class AB (or is it as good as B ?) to create a 'clean' AC.
Yet... not as clean as the much cheaper AC generator Amir uses for testing which is basically a similar device except it can do much more.

The powerplant thus can make a clean AC (just like a normal amp would make clean audio) when fed from dirty mains yet an amp would not have the same abilities.

powerplant: dirty AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> smoothing caps = clean enough DC to feed an amplifier that can make clean AC
Amplifier: dirty AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> smoothing caps ≠ clean enough DC to feed an amplifier that can make clean audio ?

Why would that be ?

The PowerPlant can deliver 1200W but from mains directly one can easily draw 3000W (and much higher peaks) without even blowing the fuse.
Why would the PowerPlant be able to deliver more power ? Due to the (small) reservoir caps ? Peaks will be limited by the PowerPlant's transformer and amplifier (+ protection).
One has to remember the AC coming out of the PowerPlant will only deliver the power at the peaks of the AC where, due to the small time where diodes in rectifiers actually conduct, much higher peaks are present.

O.K. what benefits could such a device offer ?
I assume safety ground is simply patched (it would have to be) so ground is certainly not cleaned and just as dirty as before. (not checked ?)
Well... it could remove the DC from mains which could make some devices that audibly (physically) hum when DC is present could be more silent.
This issue can be solved < $ 100.- as well... why spend $ 5.5k ? (not measured but logical to assume)
It could lower some common mode currents due to the transformer inside... Common mode filters can do the same but arguably not in the audible range. When one is plagued by inexplicable audible hum this device could help but... its better to find out where it is coming from and solve that instead of not addressing the root cause and putting on a band-aid. (also not measured)

Then there is galvanic separation (not tested for either) which could help in some rare cases... so can a much cheaper moving transformer.

(Very) short power supply interruptions could be dealt with by this device. This isn't tested either. For that (as well as all other mains related tests) you need specialized test equipment. For this aspect one would need a 'flicker test'. Mains is interrupted shortly. The powerplant could solve this.
However, when this happens you would be bothered by strange short 'ticks' in your house and may find PC's that sometimes reboot by themselves. When you live in an area with lots of industry or far away from a street transformer and lots of houses then this could occur.

You don't need to spend € k5.5 to solve this I would recommend a no-break UPS (regenerative) and have the benefit of batteries supplying the DC for the generator.

In essence... a LOT of money for technical issues that can be solved much cheaper IF one is bothered by them.

Ofcourse... no one can beat Paul's beautiful explanations and the positive reviews from 'reviewers' and owners that swear there are substantial audio improvements.
THIS is where the sales for PS Audio are generated from and something no testing will ever be able to 'counter'.

 

[amirm]

Part 2 with amplifier testing just published: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audio-p12-review-part-2-power-testing.31432/

 

[Spkrdctr]

You know what's funny about all of this (from an engineers p.o.v.) is that the PowerPlant (which basically is a poweramp with a standard linear power supply) is to remove all 'garbage' and make a 'clean' AC on its output.

So 'dirty' mains goes through a power transformer, rectifier and into some (rather small) smoothing caps.
That rectified DC obviously is clean enough to power an class AB (or is it as good as B ?) to create a 'clean' AC.
Yet... not as clean as the much cheaper AC generator Amir uses for testing which is basically a similar device except it can do much more.

The powerplant thus can make a clean AC (just like a normal amp would make clean audio) when fed from dirty mains yet an amp would not have the same abilities.

powerplant: dirty AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> smoothing caps = clean enough DC to feed an amplifier that can make clean AC
Amplifier: dirty AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> smoothing caps ≠ clean enough DC to feed an amplifier that can make clean audio ?

Why would that be ?

You got it. Pure gobblity gook to me. Every time I read the snake oil "technical" explanations it results in more Xanax use. I have said many times on this site that so much pure rubbish and quack pot theories are espoused by scammers and rip off artists. There is a reason most regular people and most women do not get into audio that much. They can't wade through the mental garbage that is rampant in this industry. They are smarter than we are, they ignore theoretical garbage! Well, at least we have Amir trying his best to level the field and give people a chance at not wasting thousands of dollars on junk. High end junk that does not do what it is supposed to. Most times making it worse!

Oh, and I need to refill that Xanax scrip too.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

@Sir Sanders Zingmore Those are not my words. They were within quotes.

I know

 

[amirm]

@SIY @Doodski

A few more things for you both to think about (see older link above):

"if you were to look at a power amplifier's [voltage rails], you would see that these harmonics are pretty much gone. They're gone because the capacitors in the power supply have shunted them off to ground. Most people would stop at that point and say, "That's fine, they're gone." Unfortunately, in the way that power amps are designed—and preamps and DACs, for that matter—the point where the noise is shunted off, our power-supply ground, is directly wired to the signal ground.

McGowan: Exactly. It doesn't. It's like anything else that's connected through a resistance, in that some voltage is generated [across that resistance]. If that's the point where you're shunting off these harmonics and the other things you don't want, then they will actually reappear on that ground point. And if those harmonics are going up and down in time with the music, which will happen as the power amp draws current from the wall to the music, then you get a funny kind of modulation that contributes to the way things sound, a tinny quality or a glassy glare.
This is only a guess. But now that we're a bit more sensitive to this type of audible distortion, I can sit down to a system and pretty much hear the glare, because whether it's on a voice or on an instrument, that glare tends to ride with the music. When we run that same system through a perfect voltage source, a regulated AC source, that glare is gone.

Atkinson: So when you regenerate the AC supply with a Power Plant, the components you plug into it are now being fed from a perfect voltage source. Whatever their current demands are, they're still being fed with a constant AC voltage.

McGowan: That's correct. The Power Plant is essentially a power amplifier being fed by a DSP-based sinewave generator. And if the device that's being driven by the Power Plant demands current in an irregular fashion, what will happen is that, because the Power Plant is an amplifier with negative feedback, it is able to compensate for that asymmetrical or nonsinusoidal current demand. The Power Plant's power supply is able to pump more current to meet those demands. Whereas, if you plug the device directly into the wall socket, depending on the resistance inside of the line, you get a modulation effect due to the current demands.

Atkinson: And that modulation ends up riding on the signal ground in your amplifier or preamp.

McGowan: We can see that on a 'scope. If you tie a fairly high-value resistor on one side to the device's signal ground and the other side to a [true] earth ground, you can actually see the modulation."

They don't need anything to "think about." For any of the above to be valid, he would need to provide instrumentation and measurements, not words and claims. And love that comment about "glare." Let's have him pass that test blind and then we can talk. Is he honestly saying that all of his customers that do NOT have this power conditioner are hearing glare? All these expensive system people have without this box are flawed this way? Really?

Be a smart consumer. Don't buy into words. If these are real technical things, then measurements and schematics should go with them. Shame that JA with all of his knowledge is letting Paul lead him on rather than setting up tests to verify these things.

 

[solderdude]

Be a smart consumer. Don't buy into words. If these are real technical things, then measurements and schematics should go with them.

This basically.

 

[Spkrdctr]

"When an amplifier demands a quick burst of transient power, the straight wall socket can't deliver it without dipping in voltage," he explained. "And if a passive conditioner is attached, that gets even worse. But when the regenerator is there, it delivers the energy without batting an eye—and that's where the magic happens."

I just wanted to bold type that. The snake oil salesman's "go to" line to make the sale. Who can question magic?

 

[antcollinet]

For what it's worth I did a brief test on its efficiency earlier and tested with my space heater at half setting (750W) and it handled it fine, even running for ~10 minutes, it didn't get hot and the fans never spun up. I keep my amp, tv, dac, and various other sources connected to it with no issues.


In the manual, the nominal input voltage (for US) is 95-145VAC, so my guess is it can smooth out anything within that range.

Your guess is wrong - it can't put out a higher AC voltage than it puts in. If it's input is 120V and it is outputting slightly less than 120V, then the supply drops to 100V the output of the regen will drop to slightly less than 100V.

What it could do is continuously output only (say) 100V, then keep that stable as the mains supply varies from 100V up to 145. But that would limit available power on the output - so I am pretty certain it doesn't do that.

 

[Kevinfc]

Looking at the internals, it’s a waste of a lot of very nice parts for no purpose.

 

[SIY]

Shame that JA with all of his knowledge is letting Paul lead him on rather than setting up tests to verify these things.

A quibble: "led on" means that he doesn't know better. He certainly does. So there's a different word for that...

 

[SIY]

I just wanted to bold type that. The snake oil salesman's "go to" line to make the sale. Who can question magic?

Interesting part of this is the "quick burst of transient power." That gives away the game (unless you're totally ignorant of how power supplies work, which is clearly the case for the PS shills).

 

[diddley]

It was a old interview, but eventualy the thruth will come out thanks to Amir.
That's one of the reason i love this website so much.

 

[Rottmannash]

@Rottmannash But Amir said: "I can't recommend the VTV Purifi amplifiers based on these two versions I have tested."

Fortunately for me @Rick Sykora modified it and it's up to spec. So no worries and still right @ $1000. Perhaps I should send my Sykora-modified amp to Amir for testing...

 

[Cougar]

@DonR I agree, although I don't know that it would be a fraction of the cost, [the p12 costs MSRP $5500 and I just sold on line a brand new factory sealed P12 for $4800], because a well designed amp might be many thousands of dollars today. My 30 year old Mark Levinson 23.5 I think cost like $6000 30 years ago. If you dial that forward in time with inflation arbitrarily set at 3.5% annually, the cost in today's dollars would be like $17,000. It was said to be one of the best made amps around at the time. I think Atkins at Stereophile once said [paraphrasing from memory] that "any well designed amplifier does not need a power conditioner". So to get a comparable amp today maybe one could argue that you'd have to spend at least $17,000 ? Plus, amp technology components used today might have changed (I'm no expert on that) and maybe you'd have to spend twice that amount today to get a comparable piece of equipment. In any event, I agree with you. A better amp makes more sense.

I remember something back when these ML preamps and power amps sold new that the company even said NOT to plug them into any AC filtering. Their internal power supplies were supposed to have been really good to handle any AC issues.

A buddy of mine had a Audio shop and when we plugged the ML gear into the P-600, there was a noticeable degrade in sound both pre and power amps. Actually we tried other power amps and they all had slight degraded sound when plugged into the PS Audio P-600 power plant. When the amps were plugged back into the wall AC, sound returned back to something enjoyable. We did notice a slight improvement in some front end gear like preamps, tuners, CD players but that could have been due to the internal PS not being well designed.

This is one of the reasons why I sold my P-300, it did help on some front end gear (most noticeable on the Linn LP-12 I had with Valhalla PS) but I never really enjoyed it and when I took it out of the system I noticed how dull the system was with it in it, I have the Ultimate Outlet also and ran it from the AC receptacle and the P-300 plugged into that. The P-300 was supposed to keep its AC output at a constant 120VAC.

One thing I never understood why the Power Plants had was the different selectable wave types.

I would be really interested in a test of the Ultimate Outlet and what the results may be. When I opened it up it looks like an isolation transformer inside.

 

[RichB]

I remember something back when these ML preamps and power amps sold new that the company even said NOT to plug them into any AC filtering. Their internal power supplies were supposed to have been really good to handle any AC issues.

A buddy of mine had a Audio shop and when we plugged the ML gear into the P-600, there was a noticeable degrade in sound both pre and power amps. Actually we tried other power amps and they all had slight degraded sound when plugged into the PS Audio P-600 power plant. When the amps were plugged back into the wall AC, sound returned back to something enjoyable. We did notice a slight improvement in some front end gear like preamps, tuners, CD players but that could have been due to the internal PS not being well designed.

This is one of the reasons why I sold my P-300, it did help on some front end gear (most noticeable on the Linn LP-12 I had with Valhalla PS) but I never really enjoyed it and when I took it out of the system I noticed how dull the system was with it in it, I have the Ultimate Outlet also and ran it from the AC receptacle and the P-300 plugged into that. The P-300 was supposed to keep its AC output at a constant 120VAC.

One thing I never understood why the Power Plants had was the different selectable wave types.

I would be really interested in a test of the Ultimate Outlet and what the results may be. When I opened it up it looks like an isolation transformer inside.

I have had this experience in the past and now, always plug amps directly into the wall.

- Rich

 

[Mnyb]

It would have been very interesting to see and measure the AC wave form during these tests and also the THD on the AC ?

Why . the current draw from an unregulated power supply is not always "nice" this current then modulates the voltage in proportion to the impedance of the AC network (I*Z) ? so if this voltage in turn is also used for other components I can clearly see cases where this can be not so good .

If one really wants to invest k$ in power conditioning i can think of no better action than a thicker powerline to the house and then dedicated thicker wring from the fuse box directly to the hifi room low impedance is the objective . Not that I really think its necessary at all , but if where to build these kind of massive 16ch HT rooms i would do that

 

[LEFASR160]

@RichB @Cougar Yes, I tried a P-300 a long time ago and sold it. I even had a P-600 and sold it to a VP of Campbell Soup Co. He was a EE who graduated from MIT. He wanted to play with the power regenerator I guess. I came to the same conclusions that you did with respect to a power regen. My ML 23.5 is plugged directly into a dedicated 20 Amp circuit ( I'm selling my ML 23.5 after 30 years of use and am replacing it with a new amp) but for a long time I used one of those ultimate outlets for the ML amp which PS Audio doesn't make any more. I have a few of those ultimate outlets. It's possible that they do something good ? (I'll be surprised if they do since I didn't notice anything !!!) Similarly, the power regenerator I always had my doubts about it and now I'm convinced that they are not good. I'd be willing to loan one of the ultimate outlets to ASR for testing if it will help the ASR members/community and if a reviewer wants to test it. I really don't need them. All of my gear is plugged directly into the wall outlets and I only have 12 gauge wire and dedicated lines with breakers in the panel. And they are not too far from the panel.