• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Sunfire Cinema Grand Review (5-channel Amp)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 105 59.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 57 32.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 10 5.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 6 3.4%

  • Total voters
    178

respice finem

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
1,867
Likes
3,775
O300D is not DSP-driven by itself, it's just classic analog monitor with extended connectivity and external digital controller option, so, it shall last as long as some another ATC or Quested actives.
This is correct, though not quite analog (it has digital inputs/DAC), but DSP parameters (if it had DSP, which is external in this case) don't change once programmed anyway, what can deteriorate is rather the electronics around it, the "usual suspects" being the caps.
 
Last edited:

dartinbout

Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
271
Likes
276
I've got two of these that I bought 6 years ago. I bi-amp 5 channels and swap the LR "current" and "voltage" outputs depending on what I'm listening to this week (all voltage for classical, both for jazz and all current for rock). I feed it from an Octo DAC8 Pro with DSD128 music, movies and TV. I like the sound but it could just be some psycho-acoustics that has me dancing and giggling around the apartment. I guess with these results I won't ship 75 lb's to Seattle for recapping and use the money for a Buckeye in the future. Thanks for the review. I still think measurements are important but my subjective experience, with these, had me laughing out loud at the ASW analysis.
 

Azathoth

Active Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2020
Messages
112
Likes
255
Is it possible to use these speaker amps on headphones? Just wondered..
 

JayGilb

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
1,371
Likes
2,308
Location
West-Central Wisconsin
Amir, once again thanks for the review.
If possible, I'm looking forward to more vintage gear reviews.

I have racks of old gear at home, I buy non-working units and fix them as a hobby.
I'm not sure why everyone is surprised at the performance of these older amps. Bob Carver was just another engineer who tried to solve the problem of watts per pound and used his design innovations to establish a company selling high power amps for the average Joe.
The class G models he designed are still working after 40 years and for a few dollars, can be brought back to spec and still sound great.
His designs had flaws and they show in the specs and sometimes in the sound, but compromise is inevitable in all designs.

It's been exciting to watch class D evolve over the last couple of decades and I look forward to more innovation. Maybe different topologies will rise to dominate the market, but we're getting to the point where i/o connection area on the chassis will limit the how far they can shrink.
1200 watts of class D power in a 1/2 u sized box with distortion levels that are getting close to measurement limits of the best analyzers is here now and for under $1000 USD.

Looking forward to see where Gan Fets will take us and other new technological processes will arise as well.
It's been an incredible time to be alive and I have been enjoying the ride.
 

Madjalapeno

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
463
Likes
1,121
Location
NH, USA
Couple of questions - what does "normal use either' mean?

1645360193505.png


Also, why does it say 'Center' top left, but the input/output is on the opposite side?

Are those fuses either side of the power lead?
 

Martin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Messages
1,896
Likes
5,536
Location
Cape Coral, FL
It’s obvious Bob Carver was a talented amplifier designer and knew what he was doing with novel circuitry. I wonder how good he could have made these designs if he had applied a little measurement here and there.

Martin
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
The take-away I get from reading these reviews (and repair videos on YT) is that nostalgic desire in gear hardly ever translates into something workable. And in today's market, it is certainly not going to cost effective, simply because 1) it is getting more difficult to find desirable gear at garage-sale prices, and 2) it is becoming more difficult to find anyone with the knowledge and tools to make repairs. Today's used gear market is completely nutz, price-wise, and most repair facilities are long gone.

Gear from this and earlier eras is going to require service. Even if you get it to spec it's likely not going to be as good, quantitatively, as the best of what's available today (although it might be as good as average).

That said, one has to be careful about making absolute claims anent historical gear. The only way to really know by way of comparison is to review a sample that you know has been restored to factory specs. This may not be as easy to discover as one might suppose. It may not be "I replaced the caps so it's like new! Right?" Especially with Carver gear, which uses special circuitry. I always suggest the YT video from 'xraytonyb' on the Carver 9T in order to get an idea of what is involved. At least that was repairable. If you have something like the then very expensive Pioneer F-28, you might as well throw it in the garbage if it goes south.

At the end of the day, the guy who bought Carver (or any other brand) in 1980, should not be worried. It's been amortized down, and if it is still working then it can be said to have represented good value. If not, it's time for something modern. Simple as that. I'm reminded of Dick Burwen's multi-channel system. The amplifiers worked for 28 years of heavy use, then his (20) Phase Linear amps started to deteriorate. So he bought QSC, and went on with his life.

If there is a down-side, it that the modern stuff is typically not as cosmetically appealing as older gear.

An alternative and exception would be old tube kit, such as Dynaco. Any of those from the '50s and '60s can still be serviced and/or upgraded relatively simply, by the end-user with only a Fluke and a soldering iron. Upgraded, it will spec out at least as good, if not better, than it was when new. Of course it will not measure like new SS, but you know that from the get-go, so that should not be an important consideration for the prospective owner.
 

THD56

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2022
Messages
3
Likes
17
Hi all,

I'm a new member here (Thanks, Amir), but have been visiting the site regularly for past year or so. It's bit of a co-incidence that I have a vintage Bob Carver Signature amp in my collection. Mine's the more powerful version and has Bob's signature on the face plate for what it's worth. I occasionally use it in my 2 channel audio setup. While it certainly isn't the most quiet amp, it delivers a lot of power and runs super cool.

FYI, I find it fun to piece together a collection of old equipment and spin some discs. It's kind of like driving a vintage sports car-no sense in comparing it to a modern version but still a lot of fun.
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I have found through just simple subjective listening, that virtually every older amp or receiver I have owned, tended to get noisier with age, have channel imbalances or simply drift in time from what they were when relatively new.

New output caps alone help in one regard, but a dozen other things slowly drift. They often still sound completely listenable in most all ways, but hardly an example of what they could do when new.
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
2,693
Likes
3,944
Location
Michigan
This one is interesting. Carver does get a lot of power from these old discrete designs. I think the case is really cool looking. Too bad the meter isn't showing anything useful. Obviously you'd want it to show output at the speaker terminals. It could be a little bigger too. If these weren't more expensive than a new case from Ali express, I might put a Hypex module and VU meter inside one.
 

Ra1zel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Messages
531
Likes
1,048
Location
Poland
as you said "you don't listen to mains power" but with this amp you kind of do...
If you can hear noise at -80db, that is.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
The fake Joule Meter plate is the tackiest thing ever. Out. Boo.

Edit:-- OK apparently it's an actual meter according to an other forum, not a plate. Not really sure of it's usefulness, but you may or may not dial down my initial statement a notch... I'll go for not as bad as I thought but still.
1645373154223.png
 
Last edited:

ta240

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
1,358
Likes
2,656
This is a review and detailed measurements of the (vintage?) Sunfire Cinema Grand five channel power amp designed by Bob Carver. It is on kind loan from a member. In 1996 it cost US $2,375. This unit is from 1999 and has had its caps upgraded.
What does the term "upgraded" mean in this context? I see a fair amount of threads on old amps where the power capacitors are replaced with larger values to 'improve' the amp and where electrolytic capacitors are replaced with film capacitors. Since capacitors have more specs than just farads it is easy to alter the function of the circuit with different ESR, ripple current, etc.

Also, do these amps need more than just capacitor replacement after this much time? Are there bias adjustments that need done?

Sure, it may not have started out as a great amplifier; but then again we don't know how different from its original design it is running now.

You can hear the transformer groan when you power the unit on. So definitely a lot of in-rush current
See above about 'upgrading' the power capacitor(s).

With very limited information on the older equipment being tested makes this seem much more like a "hey, lets bash this old stuff that people like".
Even if one agrees that the numbers tell the complete story on an amplifiers performance, we would need the background on the equipment for it to be at all 'scientific'. The results fit the hypothesis so why question the methods, is bad science.
 
Last edited:

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
What does the term "upgraded" mean in this context? I see a fair amount of threads on old amps where the power capacitors are replaced with larger values to 'improve' the amp and where electrolytics are replaced with film capacitors. Since capacitors have more specs than just farads it is easy to alter the function of the circuit with different ESR, ripple current etc.
Do these amps need more than just capacitor replacement after this much time? Are there bias adjustments that need done?
It may not have started out as a great amplifier; but then again we don't know how different from its original design it is running.



See above about 'upgrading' the power capacitor(s).
I'd say since the 2 tested channels behave significantly differently, It's probably not fully to specifications. I also have some reluctance to really give meanings to these measurments of old amps, they all have been received different level of work and we never really know. We had a NAD 2200 that was simply superb, It can go in all directions. I feel that someone buying any of those should not assume that he is getting what he sees.
 
Top Bottom