• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Sigberg Audio SBS.1 Active speakers development thread

OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
(EDIT: Revised measurements in post #150: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ers-prototype-build-thread.20141/post-1092475)

Today I've visited the Seas Loudspeaker driver factory, and borrowed their Klippel and anechoic chamber. :) Here's the resulting 0-90 degrees measurements.

Since the speakers are designed to be used with zero toe-in, 15-25 degrees are roughly typical listening axis. Thus we compromise on-axis response and focus more on 15-30 degrees, so I've bolded the 15 degrees measurement.

That being said, even the on-axis is within +/- 3dB.
At 15 degrees it's roughly +/-2dB from 90-20,000hz.

1643375893474.png
 
Last edited:
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
The apparent shift in directivity at the crossover to the treble bothered me a bit, even though it looks worse than it is due to the fact that there's a slight intentional dip in the same area as well. But I revised the crossover point and tuning here a bit today anyway.

Before:

1643448891718.png

After:

1643448862006.png



Perhaps not that easy to spot the difference. :) There's less energy from 1500-3000hz, and also 4000-7000hz. In sum this results in a more even curve off-axis.

Here's 60 degrees off-axis before (blue) and after, making it easier to see:

1643449311176.png
 
Last edited:

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
The apparent shift in directivity at the crossover to the treble bothered me a bit, even though it looks worse than it is due to the fact that there's a slight intentional dip in the same area as well. But I revised the crossover point and tuning here a bit today anyway.
Will past buyers get the new tuning too?
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
Will past buyers get the new tuning too?

Actually the Klippel measurements was of a recent revision of the crossover which was all the way up at 3500hz, while it's now back at around 2500hz where it originally was. So current owners actually have reasonably similar tuning. That being said we'd happily provide current owners with updated tuning free of charge (manual software update done remotely). We did that already for a couple of owners who purchased pre-production units.
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
I'd also add that there's not exactly night and day difference between the actual sound of these tunings. Another interesting fact is that our current Manta.1 prototype looks less tidy in the measurements, but sounds better.
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
I've now been back to Seas and their Klippel with a revised configuration (closer to the production crossover configuration).

on-axis + 15 degrees (roughly listening axis) first. Both of these are around +/-2,25dB from 100-20,000hz (15 degrees are rolling off a bit at the top end).


1645106850899.png


1645106860613.png



And then 0-90, where it's now more even across the crossover between the midrange and tweeter:

1645106888717.png
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,941
Location
Brussels, Belgium
I've now been back to Seas and their Klippel with a revised configuration (closer to the production crossover configuration).

on-axis + 15 degrees (roughly listening axis) first. Both of these are around +/-2,25dB from 100-20,000hz (15 degrees are rolling off a bit at the top end).


1645106850899.png


1645106860613.png



And then 0-90, where it's now more even across the crossover between the midrange and tweeter:

1645106888717.png

Is the diffraction above 10KHz a quality of the coincidental driver?
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
Is the diffraction above 10KHz a quality of the coincidental driver?

It's a reflection of some kind, since as you can see it shifts when you move off-axis. We see a similar effect on the Manta.1 which uses the same coax, so it's probably a reflection within the driver somehow.

I'm not very worried about this as an audible artifact. In the 10-40 degrees area it's hardly present at all, and further off-axis there's a slight dip just before the peak, making it seem a bit taller than it it is. The change from the 7khz area and across the dip to the peak/reflection at 10-11khz is around 2-3dB.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
Most coaxial drivers of similar size (exceptions like Genelec and KEF did alot of effort to reduce them) have similar at that frequency region, see for example https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kali_in-8v2/ , although in this case it doesn't look too bad and a bit of extra sound power at 10 kHz can give a bit of extra "shimmer".

Since it seems you NFSed them, you could maybe also share the directivity and sound power plots?
 
Last edited:
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
Most coaxial drivers of similar size (exceptions like Genelec and KEF did alot of effort to reduce them) have similar at that frequency region, see for example https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kali_in-8v2/ , although in this case it doesn't look too bad and a bit of extra sound power at 10 kHz can give a bit of extra "shimmer".

Since it seems you NFSed them, you could maybe also share the directivity and sound power plots?

The measurements were done at the anechoic chamber at Seas (the loudspeaker driver manufacturer), and they do have the Klippel software, but they don't have the NFS module/contraption/rig, so I only have manual, individual measurements and not the ability to easily combine these to the typical NFS plots/graphs.

But the speakers will be reviewed by Audioholics this spring, and they do quite extensive manual measurements and do calculate sound power etc from these, so they will become available then.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,941
Location
Brussels, Belgium
The measurements were done at the anechoic chamber at Seas (the loudspeaker driver manufacturer), and they do have a Klippel, but they don't have the NFS module, so I only have manual, individual measurements and not the ability to easily combine these to the typical NFS plots/graphs.

But the speakers will be reviewed by Audioholics this spring, and they do quite extensive manual measurements and do calculate sound power etc from these, so they will become available then.

Are you sure? Audioholics don't normally produce spinoramas.

I honestly don't see the point of sending your speaker to a company that does one review a month of luxury American brands.

At least if you send it to Erin you can work together to tune the speaker better.
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
Are you sure? Audioholics don't normally produce spinoramas.

I honestly don't see the point of sending your speaker to a company that does one review a month of luxury American brands.

At least if you send it to Erin you can work together to tune the speaker better.

They always include measurements, admittedly of a lower resolution than you get from a Klippel. Example: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/perlisten-s7t/conclusion

With regards to tuning the speaker better (assuming that is needed, which I'm not sure I agree with at this point :) ), as mentioned above I already have access to a Klippel locally.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,941
Location
Brussels, Belgium
They always include measurements, admittedly of a lower resolution than you get from a Klippel. Example: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/perlisten-s7t/conclusion

With regards to tuning the speaker better (assuming that is needed, which I'm not sure I agree with at this point :) ), as mentioned above I already have access to a Klippel locally.

Did you guys agree that they would make a spinorama? Cause the Philharmonic tower did not get a full spin.
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
Did you guys agree that they would make a spinorama? Cause the Philharmonic tower did not get a full spin.

That is my assumption, will verify when it gets closer to the review.
 

TimVG

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
1,181
Likes
2,573
If you have the full set of data (hor & ver) I'll throw it in vcad and produce you a spinorama if you want.
 
OP
sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
2,639
Likes
5,397
Location
Norway
If you have the full set of data (hor & ver) I'll throw it in vcad and produce you a spinorama if you want.

Wish I knew that yesterday, didn't do the vertical measurements, and also not every 10 degrees all the way around (only 120-150-180). :) But thanks, useful to know, I may take you up on that offer for later measurements of our upcoming Manta.1 speakers if that's allright. :)
 

TimVG

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
1,181
Likes
2,573
Wish I knew that yesterday, didn't do the vertical measurements, and also not every 10 degrees all the way around (only 120-150-180). :) But thanks, useful to know, I may take you up on that offer for later measurements of our upcoming Manta.1 speakers if that's allright. :)

Sure thing.
 
Top Bottom