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Carver M-1.5t Review (Vintage Amp)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 102 48.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 83 39.7%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 13 6.2%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 11 5.3%

  • Total voters
    209

restorer-john

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Again the classic Krell KSA series only claimed .1% thd. or about -60 db.

Classe DR series amps only claimed .1% thd.

Mark Levinson no. 23.4 .1% thd and .2% into 4 ohm loads.

The earlier ML series specc'd .2% thd.

Accuphase claimed .03% or roughly -70 db.

Spectral claimed .01% or -80 db which is a little better.

We've been through this before. There's plenty of vintage amplifiers that are not only rated at least 2 orders of magnitude lower THD than those examples, but they are also conservative with those ratings.

Also, the THD numbers for properly compliant vintage gear are across the power range (from 250mW to rated power) and frequency bandwidth (20Hz-20kHz), something all these ASR pole sitters are not.
 

Vapor9

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No, the results like this have been poor regardless its age, speaking about audio performance. Horrible noise/buzz background, poor distortion behavior. 40 years ago it was possible to make same good linear power amplifier as it is today. There has been no progress in circuit design and discrete components since that time.
I think Bruno Putzi and his class D designs would disagree.
 

Marmus

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Ok, I’ll run some 555 measurements next week. I still have the original power supply caps in there, so if time permits, I’ll do a before and after.
BTW had mine refurbished by a factory tech (long time ago) he notice one was made in Mexico, one in...across ocean anyway and said the mosfets were different specs.
 

SIY

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I think Bruno Putzi and his class D designs would disagree.
You must understand that when Pavel talks about circuit design, he is limiting himself to old fashioned ways.
 
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SIY

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BTW had mine refurbished by a factory tech (long time ago) he notice one was made in Mexico, one in...across ocean anyway and said the mosfets were different specs.
555 doesn't have MOSFETs; it's a purely bipolar transistor design. Basic Lin topology.

1645150135241.png
 

Kuma

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All the gear that I thought was awesome when I was young and broke ends up being crap.

Some things never change.
 

Blumlein 88

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We've been through this before. There's plenty of vintage amplifiers that are not only rated at least 2 orders of magnitude lower THD than those examples, but they are also conservative with those ratings.

Also, the THD numbers for properly compliant vintage gear are across the power range (from 250mW to rated power) and frequency bandwidth (20Hz-20kHz), something all these ASR pole sitters are not.
Oh I don't disagree with you. And while I didn't type it all in most of those I posted were spec'd properly across full power bandwidth etc. But those I listed were considered heavy hitters at least among audiophiles in the USA. They were good in many ways, but there were some Japanese designs that eclipsed them in performance for a better price. Also it seems the very cream of the crop in Japanese amps didn't get sent to the USA back in the 80s and 90s.

I purchased a 2nd hand Yamaha amp and preamp from those days for my brother. Both were super good devices. I hooked the Yamaha up in place of a Classe 25 and thought had I not promised it to my brother I would have kept it. I purchased it for the goofy price of $200. He still has it and it still works. The preamp seemed the 2nd best I'd had vs a Spectral. It also still works. It did bother me that both devices had all carbon film resistors in them.
 

MC_RME

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The Carver power supply is 'soft', means high voltage but low amps. This way you get relatively high peak power, for a short time, but much less constant power (as needed in bass).

The power supply also uses a simple Triac based 'dimmer' technology right in front of the transformer, to adjust the output voltage to the needed power. This is one part of the efficiency and lower temperature these amps could offer.

But using a dimmer circuitry on the transformer feeding the power amp - well, will give exactly all that 60 Hz and multiples junk that is shown in @amirm's measurements. It also became audible quite often, as the worst ground loop one could think of.
 

Blumlein 88

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The Carver power supply is 'soft', means high voltage but low amps. This way you get relatively high peak power, for a short time, but much less constant power (as needed in bass).

The power supply also uses a simple Triac based 'dimmer' technology right in front of the transformer, to adjust the output voltage to the needed power. This is one part of the efficiency and lower temperature these amps could offer.

But using a dimmer circuitry on the transformer feeding the power amp - well, will give exactly all that 60 Hz and multiples junk that is shown in @amirm's measurements. It also became audible quite often, as the worst ground loop one could think of.
I remember some ads for the Magnetic field amps tried to explain it with illustrations of a large tank of water and a small tank of water and an adjustable outlet valve. It was basically correct, in that the Carver was shown with a big tank with lots of water level and therefore more pressure on tap for momentary peaks, vs a nearly empty tank where water flowed out as fast as it flowed in.
 

5th element

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It's worth pointing out that there is a service manual type document here


This would allow it to be tuned back to per factory specs incase anything has drifted over time.

One thing is for certain is that there is a deliberate time constant attached to the power supply when delivering maximum power. This would take care in the measurements to ensure that it isn't timing out before they can complete.
 

capslock

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555 doesn't have MOSFETs; it's a purely bipolar transistor design. Basic Lin topology.

View attachment 187372
Yes, classic topology, but with a few twists. Is that really a 33.2 K degeneration resistor in the emitter of Q1, not 33.2 R? It reduces the gain of Q1 massively, which would result in poor noise performance. Also, since Q2 is not degenerated, the LTP would be unbalanced, maybe in an attempt to generate HD2?

What is that controlled current source Q5 doing? It is driven from the collector resistor of Q2, but is not doing anything useful, with its collector resistor going to ground via a diode. I don't think it is doing anything useful other than being a somewhat nonlinear load on Q2.
 
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MaxBuck

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For a 40-year-old amplifier, I'm having trouble understanding the opprobrium. Cancel culture appears to be alive and well at ASR. :cool:

Seriously, this thing runs circles around the silly Crimson tube amp. I doubt many people would hear much difference between this device and the Benchmark driving reasonably efficient loudspeakers.
 

capslock

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It's worth pointing out that there is a service manual type document here


This would allow it to be tuned back to per factory specs incase anything has drifted over time.

One thing is for certain is that there is a deliberate time constant attached to the power supply when delivering maximum power. This would take care in the measurements to ensure that it isn't timing out before they can complete.
That link didn't work for me, but putting Carver-M1.5-Service-Manual.pdf into google did. The copies are hard to read, but it is a very different circuit from the 555. Input Opamp (designated TLO-81 in the typed circuit description which is probably a TL081?) driving a resistive load that controls a bipolar current mirror with gain, triple EF with dual output pairs and rail switching. There's a neat optocoupler circuit that detects clipping by looking at the opamp output and will attenuate the input via an LDR type optocoupler. The TL081 (if that's what it is) is not exactly a gourmet choice, but on the whole, I don't see why the circuit should generate this much distortion.
 

restorer-john

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Yes, classic topology, but with a few twists. Is that really a 33.2 K degeneration resistor in the emitter of Q1, not 33.2 R? It reduces the gain of Q1 massively, which would result in poor noise performance. Also, since Q2 is not degenerated, the LTP would be unbalanced, maybe in an attempt to generate HD2?

What is that controlled current source Q5 doing? It is driven from the collector resistor of Q2, but is not doing anything useful, with its collector resistor going to ground via a diode. I don't think it is doing anything useful other than being a somewhat nonlinear load on Q2.

What's interesting is the service manual which describes this:

1645166746843.png


But R4 is not on the parts list and is MIA. There is a link on the PCB...

1645166843907.png



The 555mk2 is different again.
 

capslock

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What's interesting is the service manual which describes this:

View attachment 187387

But R4 is not on the parts list and is MIA. There is a link on the PCB...

View attachment 187388


The 555mk2 is different again.
Found the manual on vintagehifi with a much better scan of the schematic. R3 is the emitter resistor of Q1. I couldn't find an R4 on the whole schematic. Assuming it was supposed to be the emitter resitors of Q2, with both of them in the 10 - 100 R range (well, 220 R if you're Onkyo), this would fit the description. This would constitute a degenerated LTP, i.e. a sacrifice of open loop gain to attain a larger linear input range. Replacing R4 with a short would result in all kinds of interesting harmonics, so maybe this is intentional.

R3 is really marked 33.2 K in the schematic but is listed as 33.2 in the parts list. 33.2 K would have been excessive!

Found a description of the mystery current source Q5. L1 is really an LED (missing arrows in the schematic), and the whole thing is just a clipping light.

PS: the LTP is remarkeably well balanced, I'm getting 1.96 mA tail current, and with the CC load of the VAS set to 5 mA, the current in Q1 computes as 0.99 mA. So while a current mirror was saved, balancing was done and the asymmetry introduced through omission of R4.
 
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SIY

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What's interesting is the service manual which describes this:

View attachment 187387

But R4 is not on the parts list and is MIA. There is a link on the PCB...

View attachment 187388


The 555mk2 is different again.
And there were actually a few different versions of the original 555; for example, mine (from the original product release) has an input blocking cap which is not shown on that schematic.
 

KaiDeus

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For a 40-year-old amplifier, I'm having trouble understanding the opprobrium. Cancel culture appears to be alive and well at ASR. :cool:

Seriously, this thing runs circles around the silly Crimson tube amp. I doubt many people would hear much difference between this device and the Benchmark driving reasonably efficient loudspeakers.
Yeah, it is like shitting on a Trabant for being a bad car, which was in production up until 1991. You would not want this amp hooked up to your speaker, fine and competitor products were better at the time, but come on, it is 40 years old. I wonder how some of you might feel, when you are judged by what you posted on social media 40 years from now :)
 

FeddyLost

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36 years without original OEM service.
Switching rails usually called class G now, and I suppose such bad performance is due to aging.
Not only capacitors in PSU suffered.
 

SwampYankee

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And there were actually a few different versions of the original 555; for example, mine (from the original product release) has an input blocking cap which is not shown on that schematic.
The GFA-555 II was supposed to be a "ground up" redesign by Walt Morey. There were several other variations on the 555, as SIY noted.

See here: Adcom GFA-555 II Review
 
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