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Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

Rate this product:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 96 31.6%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 114 37.5%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 63 20.7%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 31 10.2%

  • Total voters
    304

drfrink24

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Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.
Power limiting without ever even seeing a 4ohm load, or any specific setting within the unit enabled. This seems like an obvious firmware bug.

I'm curious though; Is this what a 6ohm vs. 8ohm setting would actually look like in practice?
 

peng

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Maybe Denon/Marantz will give up in Audessy after the 200 dollar windows app??? I almost bought it and thought I need to step.off this and wait for a product that meets the criteria. We should crowd fund our own. There is enough people on here that are industry legends and a couple who wrote the book on sound. Why couldn't we make an avr that plays hig res tracks without downsampling them. We would just have to raise the money for the design and get one if the companies to produce it.

If you had kept the Denon it might not have been that bad either. Have you seen any evidence, proof, that Dirac Live based on the version that comes with the RZ50 is superior to XT32 SubEQ HT with the App when the calibration is done by experienced users? I have not seen such an apple to apple comparison who graphs and would love to see a few. All I know is, with the App, and Ratbuddyssey, I managed to get results that is hard to imagine Dirac can improve it further with the exception of may be impulse response.

As to down sampling, it is nice if that can be avoided but in terms of sound quality there is again, no evidence (except to the contrary that going from 192 or 96 kHz to 48 kHz would result in audible loss of "sound quality". Denon/Marantz's new DAC chip may hold them back on the test bench but if you compare the one's with the AK4458 such as the X3700H, I would feel more comfortable using it than using the RZ50 unless you only look at the one single preamp/DAC SINAD test using a 1 kHz signal. In that case, yes the RZ50 measured just as good, but we should look at all the test results not just one.
 

Dj7675

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With a fan on top of the heatsinks, I don't know why they are current limiting the thing. If heat is a problem, they could turn that fan on than limiting power so severely. Someone thinks they are doing the company a favor here but it is a puzzle what that is.

BTW, I am only driving two channels here. Who knows how it limits with more channels driven.
That would be interesting to know... what the threshold is when using all channels to put it in power limiting mode.
 

Operator

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If you had kept the Denon it might not have been that bad either. Have you seen any evidence, proof, that Dirac Live based on the version that comes with the RZ50 is superior to XT32 SubEQ HT with the App when the calibration is done by experienced users? I have not seen such an apple to apple comparison who graphs and would love to see a few. All I know is, with the App, and Ratbuddyssey, I managed to get results that is hard to imagine Dirac can improve it further with the exception of may be impulse response.

As to down sampling, it is nice if that can be avoided but in terms of sound quality there is again, no evidence (except to the contrary that going from 192 or 96 kHz to 48 kHz would result in audible loss of "sound quality". Denon/Marantz's new DAC chip may hold them back on the test bench but if you compare the one's with the AK4458 such as the X3700H, I would feel more comfortable using it than using the RZ50 unless you only look at the one single preamp/DAC SINAD test using a 1 kHz signal. In that case, yes the RZ50 measured just as good, but we should look at all the test results not just one.
Hi peng.
I'm a fairly new member here. I'm about to order an Arcam AVR20 mainly because of Dirac Live, independent sub outs and the choice of adding DLBC. However since it seems you don't think Dirac is all that much better than Audyssey XT32, why do you think there are so many people that say Dirac is superior to Audyssey XT32? I hear this mainly for music but some even say for movies.
Is there something to Diracs ability to correct impulse response? If you only correct the bass frequencies are they then equal? Are people using Audyssey XT32 the wrong way with music perhaps?

I am asking this since where I live (Sweden) neither Onkyo, Integra or Pioneers new receivers are available nor in any part of Europe as far as I have been able to find and probably wont be until the summer and I kinda need a receiver right now.
 

Martin

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I keep waiting for Onkyo/Pioneer to announce the release of Pioneer Elite SC-LX704 / LX904 equivalent versions with DIRAC and Direct Energy HD (class D) amplification. Would they have the issue with clipping at 4 ohms?

Martin
 

amper42

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Question for those using the TX-RZ50. If you connect a Kill-o-watt to the receiver and use the TX-RZ50 with external amps only what is the energy usage of the receiver?

Many Denon 3700/4700 users are using full preamp mode either for stereo or full 7.2.4. It wouldn't be unusual for TX-RZ50 users to use pre-outs and external amps too. If that's the case, the 4ohm amp issue becomes a non-issue, performance is enhanced, Dirac offers more advanced features and sounds great to most users. All at a price that's $600 less than the Denon 4700. :D

While it would be nice to have 192kHz audio support - I have that now and can't tell a difference. In fact, I bought 24/192kHz albums and compared them to ripped copies of the same CD and it's not unusual to prefer the CD version in my A/B tests.

The TX-RZ50 seems like a viable option to me.

 

Reed

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Will using subwoofer(s) change the clipping picture with the RZ-50? I’ll be using LS50 Metas for LR, KEF 250C and a couple of Goldenear ceiling speakers in 5.1. We will be 50/50 music and movies. Our listening position will be 9’ from the speakers and we don’t listen loud to either. My gut tells me it won’t be an issue. I already use Dirac in my 2.1 office setup and love it. The RZ-50 is on my radar 100% due to Dirac. I can get a different power amp later. I guess my concern is how quickly do you get to clipping and the protection circuit?
 

Dj7675

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Will using subwoofer(s) change the clipping picture with the RZ-50? I’ll be using LS50 Metas for LR, KEF 250C and a couple of Goldenear ceiling speakers in 5.1. We will be 50/50 music and movies. Our listening position will be 9’ from the speakers and we don’t listen loud to either. My gut tells me it won’t be an issue. I already use Dirac in my 2.1 office setup and love it. The RZ-50 is on my radar 100% due to Dirac. I can get a different power amp later. I guess my concern is how quickly do you get to clipping and the protection circuit?

See review of Amir on that speaker. He recommends a beefy amp. Sitting at 9 feet, combined with a sensitivity of just 85, seems like a recipe for a problem If listening very loudly with internal amps.

1A584A2E-D04F-4F7D-AEF3-71877B3E8A54.jpeg
 

peng

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Hi peng.
I'm a fairly new member here. I'm about to order an Arcam AVR20 mainly because of Dirac Live, independent sub outs and the choice of adding DLBC. However since it seems you don't think Dirac is all that much better than Audyssey XT32, why do you think there are so many people that say Dirac is superior to Audyssey XT32? I hear this mainly for music but some even say for movies.
Is there something to Diracs ability to correct impulse response? If you only correct the bass frequencies are they then equal? Are people using Audyssey XT32 the wrong way with music perhaps?

I have had read a lot about Dirac Live, and I have used the beta test PC version a couple years ago. As an experienced user of Audyssey XT32 SubEQHT, the Editor app and Ratbuddssy, I know that without tweaking, Audyssey could consistently get me within +/- 5 to 7 dB from 20 - 130 Hz, or to 200 Hz depending on how much time I spent on position the subwoofers, and my mlp position but that's without tweaking.

With tweaking, I had managed to get within +/- 1 dB or even tighter if I spent enough time on using the App with Ratbuddyssey that is a free downloader user interface. Whoever wrote that program deserves a ton of credits. I have yet to see Dirac Live users posts of better frequency response results along with other graphs that can do better, so you can see why I am a little skeptical about the claim of "superiority" as though it is fact. As to "sound better", it is a forever debate that some will say A is better, others will say the opposite or no different, that's really all talks based on each individual's, and there isn't even any properly conducted polls/surveys on the subject matter, non any controlled blind tests to at least show some consistent preference.

I think lots of people would believe what they read on the internet as long as the source of the information appear to be creditable, even better if it is new (relatively) and a lot of papers written on it. Dirac Live has an impressive website, whereas Audyssey's don't appear to focus on HT audio any more, so people are getting a one-sided story to begin with. Dirac users might also tend to be better educated on the software, whereas a lot of users don't even know the reason why thought Audyssey made the sound thin and boring, because Audyssey's targe curve would flatten the bass and they could easily restore the bass they prefer by some tweaking. The fact that Audyssey/D+M continue to use their cheap looking mic, that, at $40-$50 (don't remember exactly) doesn't help either. $40 to $50 is not even that cheap to some, and it is supposedly calibrated for its specific purpose, and from my experience it is actually accurate enough for it purpose. I can tell just by the consistent result I have been getting from my many REW graphs. So I believe in addition to what I just mentioned, that is the effects of hearsay, "so many people believe Dirac is superior to Audyssey" because it looks that way, is definitely superior to the old XT and even XT32 versions, but not necessarily better than the full XT32 SubEQHT version once you factor in the ability to weak with the MultEQ editor app and ratbuddyssey combination.

My comments of Dirac's impulse response performance are based on what I read on their marketing information and that was partially confirmed from the results I obtained when beta testing the PC version about two years ago. When I compared their impulse response using REW, the difference was that much so I doubt there would be audible effect, but again it was the beta version.

Incidentally, I am about to download their current version for a quick trial and if I see enough improvements from what the beta version did for me, I would likely either purchase it or upgrade my minidsp and go that hardware route instead of the PC route.


I am asking this since where I live (Sweden) neither Onkyo, Integra or Pioneers new receivers are available nor in any part of Europe as far as I have been able to find and probably wont be until the summer and I kinda need a receiver right now.

In my opinion it is not a good time to buy because of the supply chain issues. If you need one right now, may be you should try to get an Arcam or NAD from an authorize dealer that offers a trial period. Before you do that I would suggest you get everything reading (install REW if not yet and have a mic, something like the U-mik's) so you can see the actual results so you don't have to rely only on other user's subjective views.
 
OP
amirm

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I keep waiting for Onkyo/Pioneer to announce the release of Pioneer Elite SC-LX704 / LX904 equivalent versions with DIRAC and Direct Energy HD (class D) amplification. Would they have the issue with clipping at 4 ohms?

Martin
If the amp is different then it is all new game and we have to test it to know what it does.
 

Rick63

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I'd love to know how many of the 6 who gave a golfing panther are owners of the RZ50.
 

ryanmh1

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From "any users?" How would you know that? You surveyed every user? And what if it is happening but people don't know any better because there is no indicator?

As to how it enters this mode, as I said, the exact algorithm is unknown. My old Onkyo AVR would use the volume *position* to decide to turn on its fan. You would think that it would have a temp sensor but no, it used the volume control position. By the same token, there is myriad of ways the amp could be deciding to enter such a mode.

No. There's a fairly long thread about the RZ50 at AVS and this does not seem to be an issue that has arisen. If the power users aren't griping, it's probably not a gripe. And I think people would know. When the limiter engages, the amplifier section appears to put out maybe 40 to 50 watts into 4 ohms before audible clipping sets in. That translates to about 25 watts into 8 ohms, best case. So you go from a 170/250W amp to a 25/40W amp. That's going to result in nearly a 10dB drop in the distortion-free output--i.e. about half the former volume. Also see https://www.audioholics.com/av-rece...-4.2-drx-4.3-listening-bench-tests-conclusion for a review of the Integra DRX-4.3 which likely uses the same or a similar amplifier circuit, and exhibited the same behavior. Note that there were able to pull CEA tests, despite this, so it seems like it might be fine on program. You could alter the on/off duty cycle to see what it takes to trip it as an alternative to using the data recorder. Onkyo used to use around a 100msec trip on this, according to Sound and Vision. Perhaps they still do. So while a CEA would seem not to trip it, a sweep could.

I just have a hard time understanding how this isn't going to be clearly audible if it happens in the real world. Onkyo has been doing this for some time, and every forum thread would be littered with complaints if the receiver regularly cut volume by HALF. I think the odds are that it's fine for program material. Why is it so touchy? Who knows. Perhaps Onkyo is running the outputs too close to their SOA in order to get high peak figures on program material for all 9 channels. In that case, you're not so concerned about heatsink temperature, but how long you let the transistor itself get overworked. If it is in fact a "software" versus heat triggering, that would make sense. Arguably, it's also an acceptable compromise to make for movie program material to provide high dynamic output without clipping. A reset indicator would be nice, though, or an auto-reset. That aspect is pretty stupid. And it's clear this isn't a product to blast the latest highly compressed zero dynamic range pop album at max volume. That might trip it. Might.

It still remains that you're getting Dirac, and 9 channels of amplification that put out about 170/250W on program material for $1400, which is unbeatable value.
 

peng

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No. There's a fairly long thread about the RZ50 at AVS and this does not seem to be an issue that has arisen. If the power users aren't griping, it's probably not a gripe. And I think people would know. When the limiter engages, the amplifier section appears to put out maybe 40 to 50 watts into 4 ohms before audible clipping sets in. That translates to about 25 watts into 8 ohms, best case. So you go from a 170/250W amp to a 25/40W amp. That's going to result in nearly a 10dB drop in the distortion-free output--i.e. about half the former volume. Also see https://www.audioholics.com/av-rece...-4.2-drx-4.3-listening-bench-tests-conclusion for a review of the Integra DRX-4.3 which likely uses the same or a similar amplifier circuit, and exhibited the same behavior. Note that there were able to pull CEA tests, despite this, so it seems like it might be fine on program. You could alter the on/off duty cycle to see what it takes to trip it as an alternative to using the data recorder. Onkyo used to use around a 100msec trip on this, according to Sound and Vision. Perhaps they still do. So while a CEA would seem not to trip it, a sweep could.

I just have a hard time understanding how this isn't going to be clearly audible if it happens in the real world. Onkyo has been doing this for some time, and every forum thread would be littered with complaints if the receiver regularly cut volume by HALF. I think the odds are that it's fine for program material. Why is it so touchy? Who knows. Perhaps Onkyo is running the outputs too close to their SOA in order to get high peak figures on program material for all 9 channels. In that case, you're not so concerned about heatsink temperature, but how long you let the transistor itself get overworked. If it is in fact a "software" versus heat triggering, that would make sense. Arguably, it's also an acceptable compromise to make for movie program material to provide high dynamic output without clipping. A reset indicator would be nice, though, or an auto-reset. That aspect is pretty stupid. And it's clear this isn't a product to blast the latest highly compressed zero dynamic range pop album at max volume. That might trip it. Might.

It still remains that you're getting Dirac, and 9 channels of amplification that put out about 170/250W on program material for $1400, which is unbeatable value.

From what I can see, I think you are right that for real world use it isn't an issue except under some extreme conditions the user might put it through. As to the cause(s), it could be either there is a bug in the protection scheme, or if not, whoever implemented the scheme was silly, and/or unrealistically too cautious, in my opinion.
 

Rick63

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FWIW, I own one and I voted headless.

Thank you.

Perhaps I should have stated why I was curious. I'd love to know of those who gave it a golfing panther that own it and given the measurements, how many of the internal amp channels are they using and with what speakers, and what are their real world results?
 

Jbrunwa

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It still remains that you're getting Dirac, and 9 channels of amplification that put out about 170/250W on program material for $1400, which is unbeatable value.
Yes, and if the limiter becomes a problem one could use the internal amps for heights and add a fine 3 or 5 channel amp like a Buckeye and still shell out less money than for the next lowest priced Dirac Prepro.
 

Dj7675

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From what I can see, I think you are right that for real world use it isn't an issue except under some extreme conditions the user might put it through. As to the cause(s), it could be either there is a bug in the protection scheme, or if not, whoever implemented the scheme was silly, and/or unrealistically too cautious, in my opinion.
I wish we could know more about the conditions to trigger it for sure. I don't agree with "people haven't noticed so it isn't a problem", however. It could be, but too little is known IMO. Bookshelf speakers have become so common and many like the KEF LS50 or LS50 Meta are only have a sensitivity of 85 and are less than 4ohm. Now imagine in a 7.1 setup. It seems quite likely it could be an issue. I don't know if @amirm has the unit still, or feels it worth investigating what levels trigger it, but the fact it can be triggered and the owner not know it is a problem imo. It's too bad the amps are relatively poor compared to amps in the Denon's. I would think with adding amps to the LCR would greatly reduce the issue from ever happening, but who knows.
 

TallDan

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Yes, and if the limiter becomes a problem one could use the internal amps for heights and add a fine 3 or 5 channel amp like a Buckeye and still shell out less money than for the next lowest priced Dirac Prepro.
I don't think that would work. Earlier in the thread, amir stated:
Yes and that is the problem. There is no indication from the unit that it has gone into this mode that I know of.

BTW, it goes into this mode with no speakers connected to it. Once I was done testing the pre-amp without speakers, I saw the power limiting from my testing of that section.
So, even with no speakers connected to LCR, it would still go into this mode, compromising the internal amp performance for any channels that are using internal amplification.
 
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amper42

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Lots of speculation with little real world use. If someone can setup the Onkyo TX-RZ50 in multi-channel stereo mode, let it run for several hours and listen to it at the end of the test. Then unplug it, wait 60 sec and turn it back on. Then answer the question - "Does it sound the same through the entire test"?

That answer would tell me what I need to know. :D
 

tsanguine

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This was looking tolerable for me until I got to the power limiting.

One reason vendors got away from the (unreadable here anyway) input-specific buttons on the front panel is the folks still using these analog inputs are almost certainly relabeling them anyway. How many people are buying a $1400 amp and plugging a separate CD player and DVD in? Or running analog sound back from the TV and separate cable box?

For that matter, how many customers are plugging in AM and FM antennae in TYOOL 2022? At least the component ins let you still run a Nintendo Wii.
I just found out I couldn't connect a Wii to my Denon. It says it didn't like the resolution using component. So I bought an HDMI Wii adapter which works great. Definitely recommended and preferred for $10.
 
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