The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

[MC_RME]

If I may...

The ADI-2 DAC (and Pro) includes a Width setting. You can change from stereo to mono in 99 steps, making the recorded piano as wide as it suits your speaker placement or taste. Additionally one can use Crossfeed not only for headphones, but also for speakers. Crossfeed can be used to attenuate unrealistic or too strong ambience, without making everything sound mono. The combination of both is a powerful way to fix issues pointed out in this thread.

Of course Width is a very basic and simple effect, so if you have no ADI get it as free plugin or similar and use it on your computer during playback.

 

[Robin L]

Whoa, not high-rez? Audiophile cred on probation... :-D Totally kidding I do Amazon and Spotify all the time

It was 16 bits to start with, so you can scratch that one off your card.
As regards Ursulas K. LGuin's vocals, they are spoken word.

 

[Robin L]

I did find one recording of a Schroeder Hall piano solo on YouTube. I feel a bit out of my element compared to the ASR members in this thread who are recording and piano music experts, and would like to hear your comments on the design of the venue and the recent piano performance below. (Where are the microphones?)

Sounds like there are microphones capturing the sound from overhead. There's a lot of room sound and very little bass. I'm going to guess the pick-up is an ORTF pair overhead and, frankly, too far from the instrument.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you look carefully there are a pair of mikes flown way up high in this pictures. Maybe 30 feet up. Much too far from the piano.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'd never ever pick to sit on or under or right next to the piano (unless Yuja Wang is playing).

In case you missed this one...

 

[Robin L]

In case you missed this one...

Fantastic---amazing audio capture as well. Manages to be close enough to get the tone of the hammer on string, but the width is realistic and not the usual left//right treble/bass split keyboard. Gotta hand it to Yuja Wang, she is a technical monster. I have to wonder what she would do with the Well-Tempered Klavier.

 

[Robin L]

Speaking of monsters of technique, here we are, Yuja Wang, live and unedited, featuring one of the most difficult works in the standard repertoire. Recorded sound is pretty good, not too close, not too wide:

 

[Blumlein 88]

Speaking of monsters of technique, here we are, Yuja Wang, live and unedited, featuring one of the most difficult works in the standard repertoire. Recorded sound is pretty good, not too close, not too wide:

Yeah the couple recordings I've done were like this. A couple of mikes right beside the open lid.

 

[mSpot]

If you look carefully there are a pair of mikes flown way up high in this pictures. Maybe 30 feet up. Much too far from the piano.

The photo caption says rehearsal. They are probably not recording.

Sonoma Chamber Music Festival Returns

The inaugural Green Music Center ChamberFest will start June 24, with eight concerts in the 240-seat Schroeder Hall and the finale on June 28 in the 1,400-seat Weill Hall.

www.sfcv.org

 

[Blumlein 88]

The photo caption says rehearsal. They are probably not recording.

Sonoma Chamber Music Festival Returns

The inaugural Green Music Center ChamberFest will start June 24, with eight concerts in the 240-seat Schroeder Hall and the finale on June 28 in the 1,400-seat Weill Hall.

www.sfcv.org

I don't know if they are or not. It sounds like I would expect in the youtube video of the piano alone however. Whether it was in exactly that spot or not it very likely was recording with the microphones in a similar position. Without pictures or someone there we can never know for sure.

 

[Robin L]

The photo caption says rehearsal. They are probably not recording.

Sonoma Chamber Music Festival Returns

The inaugural Green Music Center ChamberFest will start June 24, with eight concerts in the 240-seat Schroeder Hall and the finale on June 28 in the 1,400-seat Weill Hall.

www.sfcv.org

Right, and they probably can drop that pair to whatever height would be appropriate. The crew at Zellerbach would assist me when I was recording there by dropping a stereo pair of XLR cables from the ceiling that could suspend an ORTF pair above the stage. I'd usually have an additional Omni pair, far back and spread wide and up high for room sound, and two SDCs on short stands in front of the two halfs of the string section. But some recordings were only from the overhead pair, particularly if there was a famous performer making everyone act like they've lost their mind, in which case, good luck. I don't know why these people would suspend the pair as high as they did, but someone might have been concerned about having the microphones visible on the video.

 

[JRS]

Whoa, not high-rez? Audiophile cred on probation... :-D Totally kidding I do Amazon and Spotify all the time

I know, tie my tubes up and box my ears. You gotta love free, well sort of. But between the expedited delivery, a small sub-catalog of kindle, prime video and amazon music which is high enough rez for me, I pay my taxes to King Bezos while muttering to self. I hate what they have done to Prime Video however--before carving it all up into subscription packages, that was one of the great entertainment deals. Now not so much.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

If I may...

The ADI-2 DAC (and Pro) includes a Width setting. You can change from stereo to mono in 99 steps, making the recorded piano as wide as it suits your speaker placement or taste. Additionally one can use Crossfeed not only for headphones, but also for speakers. Crossfeed can be used to attenuate unrealistic or too strong ambience, without making everything sound mono. The combination of both is a powerful way to fix issues pointed out in this thread.

Of course Width is a very basic and simple effect, so if you have no ADI get it as free plugin or similar and use it on your computer during playback.

Someone just explained 99% of the differences people hear from any audio component.

 

[pablolie]

Speaking of monsters of technique, here we are, Yuja Wang, live and unedited, featuring one of the most difficult works in the standard repertoire. Recorded sound is pretty good, not too close, not too wide:

She is sublime. I'll have to look this up and buy it. Also, nice recovery from stepping on her dress on high heels at the end... I am not sure how she does it. I also recommend her 2019 recording with Gautier Capucon on Cello, "Franck and Chopin Cello Sonatas".

 

[Capitol C]

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the silliest audio cliche).

One thing I find downright funny in audiophile publications is when they declare some recordings audiophile pearls they use as reference... and very often these include piano. I get it and we've all read bout it... capturing the piano is particularly challenging. And most piano players have egos, and probably tell the recording engineer "people buy this record because of ME, yet I sound like I am just in the room on the left" (which is how they sound if you're in a concert hall sitting in the audience, of course).

Recording engineers have debates about to best record a piano, there are several theories out there.

I think it is funny, however, when an audiophile reviewer completely goes into the presentation of a piano recording.... which, when *I* listen to it, suffers from what I call "the 30ft piano" recording problem which is very prevalent: you hear one side of the piano coming more from the right speaker, the other side of the keys from the other. They have miked it so that is sounds waaaaay wider than 58 inches or so. There is zero stage when you do that, but many audiophile recordings (and I have to admit I love them) are such. Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect, but it's by far not the only one. My speakers are 7ft apart, so it's ridiculous when the piano is presented spanning that entire width... is it a Terasaur with a 10ft wingspan playing? :-D

I just think it is entertaining that we spend so much time talking about measurements of equipment, and very little talking about the flaws in many recordings that are taken as a reference.

Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms?

I agree completely with your concerns, but wanted to comment on the 1812 Overture. My favorite recording of it is by Reiner/Chicago. It is treated as a serious piece of music rather than a cannon shot, and the performance and the recording are excellent. Definitely worth a listen.

 

[MaxBuck]

I'm not sure I agree with much of what you're saying here, but referencing Bill Evans's "Waltz for Debby" demanded a "Like."

 

[Xulonn]

I agree completely with your concerns, but wanted to comment on the 1812 Overture. My favorite recording of it is by Reiner/Chicago. It is treated as a serious piece of music rather than a cannon shot, and the performance and the recording are excellent. Definitely worth a listen.

As I have mentioned many times, I was an usher at Chicago's Symphony Hall in 1957-58 while in high school At age 80, my 64 year old memories are incomplete and fading, but I still remember many things about those days. Those years were in the middle of the tenure of conductor Fritz Reiner when the historic and revered historic "Living Stereo" RCA recordings were made. The CSO recordings from the early to mid-1950s were multi-track (3-channel) reel-to-reel tape.

The switch for consumers from shellac 78rpm records to commercially-available vinyl 33-1/3rpm began when Columbia released their first monaural LP (long-playing) record in 1948, and the stereo format did not enter the consumer market until 1958 The first releases of the CSO recordings in the mid-1950s CSO were monophonic LPs - like the one in the first two images below. In spite of the multi-channel video market today, stereo is still the common standard for recorded music - aided, I'm sure, by the popularity of headphones and IEMs amongst humans, who have only two ears.

In March 1954, Fritz Reiner made the first stereophonic recordings with the CSO, again in Orchestra Hall, for RCA Victor, including performances of two symphonic poems by Richard Strauss: Ein Heldenleben and Also sprach Zarathustra. Reiner and the orchestra continued to record for RCA Victor through 1963.

RCA released two separately mixed and mastered versions of a 1955 CSO/Reiner performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. The first was a mono LP in 1956 and the second, a very popular "Living Stereo" version in 1958 that has seen 16 releases over the years. Two of those releases were CD's, and two were on cassette tape. The remainder were vinyl LPs, with later ones remastered, and the most recent release in 2019. Many releases were in different countries, I assume with cover text in other languages. Both the 1955-56 monaural version (CD13) and the 1959 stereo version (CD32) are included in the 63 CD boxed set [LINK].

Many recordings of classical music from that era are highly prized by collectors, with vintage LPs of the stereo version of this recording (the last three images below) in used, but good condition, currently selling for hundreds of dollars.

 

[pablolie]

As I have mentioned many times, I was an usher at Chicago's Symphony Hall in 1957-58 while in high school At age 80, my 64 year old memories are incomplete and fading, but I still remember many things about those days. Those years were in the...

What an awesome message - thank you so much. I am exploring your links!

 

[Xulonn]

What an awesome message - thank you so much. I am exploring your links!

You are welcome. Of course, I didn't write that post entirely from memory, and had to do a fair amount of on-line research to get the facts straight and fill in the gaps in my knowledge and be able to share it with others. It's kind of like going back to one's college days and studying for classes and subjects that you really enjoyed - and writing a short paper!

A nexus of factors, including enjoyment of my new vacuum tube amplifier (see my ASR YarLand thread, which will contain some cross-postings from this thread), has prompted me - without any effort - to get back into listening to classical music again. Another factor prompting a return to listening to classical is my participation in this thread - thank you for starting it.

 

[drmevo]

Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms?

I’m sort of just getting into more decent audio gear, but I’m a percussionist and jazz drummer (it’s what I went to school for and have always done semi-professionally but mostly on the side now). I can’t for the life of me understand why so many modern jazz recordings will put one ride cymbal in one channel and the other ride in the other channel. It all but ruins the imaging and soundstage effects for me, making it sound like the drummer is playing some monstrous drum set that spans the entire performance area.