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DAC with unimpaired sound quality when used in "preamp mode"?

AW61

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I need a DAC that will drive my revealing active speakers via RCA

Obviously I’m looking for best possible sound quality, not on the cold/clinical side.

I do need a volume control, so this means there must be no sound quality penalty when using it in “pre-amp” mode vs “pure DAC” mode.
Unfortunately, many DAC reviews do not do a A/B sound quality check in this way.

Maybe for some DACs the volume control implementation is digital not preamp, I don’t know

Clearly I don’t need a DAC with balanced outputs but it looks like the higher up the Sound Quality tree you go, they all come with XLR (not a complaint, just for me I don’t need the money to be spent on that facility).

As an example of one that is NOT suitable - from various reports the Topping E30 sound quality is definitely adversely affected in preamp mode

So far the SMSL SU9 looks as if it might fit the need.
Probably the RME Adi-2 but it’s quite expensive

Any other suggestions?

Thanks
 

radix

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AW61

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Have you seen this thread about analog vs digital volume control?
I hadn't... but I am aware of the digital control/bit loss thing.
As someone said in that thread, by the time you get to low volumes, you're not hearing much anyway...
But I believe many DACs have basic preamp volume controls not digital
Clearly in the Hifi world a lot of design effort and money is spent on a good active (and sometimes passive) preamp so part of this is how much attention a manufacturer gives to the preamp in a DAC.

Or am I better off going for something like this https://www.whathifi.com/musical-fidelity/m1-sdac/review ?

It's really difficult to grasp how this would compare to something like the SU9
 

polmuaddib

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Obviously I’m looking for best possible sound quality, not on the cold/clinical side.
I think you are in the wrong forum.
All suggestions you read here will be in the line of "All DACs that are properly designed sound the same."
None of that warm, cold, wider, deeper soundstage, fast bass, silky trebble....

My advice is that you look through DACs measured here, choose the one you like, with functions you need, think will sound great and it will.
 

VintageFlanker

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I hadn't... but I am aware of the digital control/bit loss thing.
Doesn't seem like it...:
Maybe for some DACs the volume control implementation is digital not preamp, I don’t know
Well, actual DACs use digital attenuation in 90% of cases. It does degrade performance, but not to an audible point (especially when starting from 120dB THD+N at 0dBfs).

If it is something you're worring about, get the ADI-2 DAC, which has 4 analog levels.

Or am I better off going for something like this https://www.whathifi.com/musical-fidelity/m1-sdac/review ?
Nope.
 

Jimbob54

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If said reports don't come with either measurements or evidence of ears only controlled listening (with output levels matched) they ain't worth much to you or anybody else.

And as others have said, the preamp mode on almost all modern dacs is digital attenuation. If you want analog add something like a topping L30 or sabaj a5 in between the dac and the speakers and control there.
 
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AW61

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If said reports don't come with either measurements or evidence of ears only controlled listening (with output levels matched) they ain't worth much to you or anybody else.
Yes! And these reports are hard to come by.
So hoping that people here that have DACs could share there experience of SQ in pure DAC vs preamp mode.
And as others have said, the preamp mode on almost all modern dacs is digital attenuation. If you want analog add something like a topping L30 or sabaj a5 in between the dac and the speakers and control there.
I don't really mind if the volume control is digital, active preamp or passive preamp, just what sounds good. I'd really want to keep it to just one box though.
 

VintageFlanker

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Are the newer small DACs really that much better?
They are. Miles ahead.
So hoping that people here that have DACs could share there experience of SQ in pure DAC vs preamp mode.
... I have. And that hasn't been any concern whatsoever regarding SQ (but it should be for output voltage). Assuming your DAC is good enough at full scale to begin with.
The SU-9 is a good preamp with 5.3Vrms.
The ADI-2 DAC also is with 6.9Vrms and Auto Ref Level.
 

Jimbob54

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Yes! And these reports are hard to come by.
So hoping that people here that have DACs could share there experience of SQ in pure DAC vs preamp mode.
Same caveats I stated apply as much to opinions on here as anywhere else. I don't hesitate to use the digital volume control on my dacs as its most convenient for me. I haven't done proper testing to determine whether the same level output from my amp is best achieved by controlling the dac or the amp volume.

But measurements suggest it shouldn't be an audible difference (all dacs here that are more than 2/4v get reduced where possible by the dac volume control)
 

Mnyb

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I’m quite happy with my topping D70 , but I only use the volume control with Fostex mini monitors at my computer. So not exactly high end , but I’ve not heard any obvious artefacts .

The D70 was on sale a while ago , the older model without MQA so I hogged one . It usually goes to my headphone amp so volume is at 100% then , but I’m using equaliser APO so gain in the PC is -10dB to accommodate the EQ needed . When using the speakers I turn of the EQ .
I haven bothered using rew in my computer workplace :eek: .

The review here at ASR suggests the the D70 is very quiet which it is .

When you eq the very high SINAD and SNR ratio products makes sense and also with digital volume controls.
Operating at 24 bit or with floating piont I find digital volume superior.
One word channel matching. An analog pot is never quite there at low volumes ..
 

Walter

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Based only on what I have read, not personal experience, the Topping D30pro has a very good preamp. As someone who listens a lot at low volume, I do wish @amirm would at least test SNR (and hopefully also THD/SINAD) at low volume settings on DACs that have volume controls, similar to how he tests headphone amps at 50mV. That is the only major improvement he could make to his testing, in my opinion.
 

Saponetto

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This would be quite interesting...
I'm using the D30Pro in both ways (DAC-Pre) and honestly I'm quite curious to achieve some data about analytical differences.
 

VintageFlanker

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I do wish @amirm would at least test SNR (and hopefully also THD/SINAD) at low volume settings on DACs that have volume controls, similar to how he tests headphone amps at 50mV.
Haem. You just take the SINAD at max output (0dBfs @ 4.1Vrms for D30 Pro) and lower it by the same amount of dB attenuation... SINAD does include SNR, that what goes down with attenuation, (most often) not THD.

He does that, sometimes:
SMSL M500 MKII Measurement THD vs Level  Balanced Stereo USB DAC.png

This would be quite interesting...
I'm using the D30Pro in both ways (DAC-Pre) and honestly I'm quite curious to achieve some data about analytical differences.
Same.;)
 
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AW61

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Based only on what I have read, not personal experience, the Topping D30pro has a very good preamp.
Good shout!
Really interesting and possibly exactly what I am looking for!
 

MaxBuck

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Based only on what I have read, not personal experience, the Topping D30pro has a very good preamp. As someone who listens a lot at low volume, I do wish @amirm would at least test SNR (and hopefully also THD/SINAD) at low volume settings on DACs that have volume controls, similar to how he tests headphone amps at 50mV. That is the only major improvement he could make to his testing, in my opinion.
As a happy D30Pro owner, I echo your comments.
 

NiagaraPete

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Haem. You just take the SINAD at max output (0dBfs @ 4.1Vrms for D30 Pro) and lower it by the same amount of dB attenuation... SINAD does include SNR, that what goes down with attenuation, (most often) not THD.

He does that, sometimes:View attachment 180950

Same.;)
Same ;)
 

restorer-john

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My number one priority would be usability when it comes to a standalone D/A converter driving active speakers. People tend to forget about that when clamouring to recommend the latest #1 poll-sitter in the ASR charts.

Does it remember volume settings when powered off or unplugged for a while? Can you set turn on volume levels so you don't get blasted out of the room? Are there any noises on power up/down that crack through active speakers? Is the +/- up/down volume fast/slow/unusable or great?

Is it so small and light that you need to glue it to the table-top to prevent the leads pulling it onto the floor? Does it skate backwards if you reach out to adjust the volume? Can you see the input designation and volume setting across the room and does it light up your listening room like a Christmas Tree at night?
 

NiagaraPete

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My number one priority would be usability when it comes to a standalone D/A converter driving active speakers. People tend to forget about that when clamouring to recommend the latest #1 poll-sitter in the ASR charts.

Does it remember volume settings when powered off or unplugged for a while? Can you set turn on volume levels so you don't get blasted out of the room? Are there any noises on power up/down that crack through active speakers? Is the +/- up/down volume fast/slow/unusable or great?

Is it so small and light that you need to glue it to the table-top to prevent the leads pulling it onto the floor? Does it skate backwards if you reach out to adjust the volume? Can you see the input designation and volume setting across the room and does it light up your listening room like a Christmas Tree at night?
Very, very good points.
 
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