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Speakers that produce astonishing soundstaging/imaging?

Jim Matthews

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What's the distinction between a dipole and an open baffle?

A dipole radiates equal amounts of sound pressure to the front and back of a listening space, regardless of enclosure design. This limits sidewall interactions and can create a secondary wavefront. If positioned correctly in a room, this can offer an audible signal that emulates the way live sound propagates from point sources.

This design can compromise phantom imaging at lower frequencies.

Open baffle speakers have no box enclosure.

Properly deployed, this can give the impression of quick impulse response. It's the cornerstone design of the Great departed Siegfried Linkwitz, to whom we hobbyists owe so much.

It is *very difficult* to produce full spectrum bass response without an enclosure.

 

DanielT

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As for my friend, he's simply not the type.
Therefore, go out to the pub, on line dating.Find the one you like.Seriously, how the hell are we supposed to give you advice on that? As I said:

Everyone has made bad purchases within Hifi from time to time. It's part of the hobby. Called learning money.

Which applies to most things.

Edit:
Buy love though, not for me. But I do not judge anyone.
(Yes, I'm kidding, I read wrong, did not see yours ..'s..otherwise it would not have been fun). ;)


Edit
Then this with volume / gain. Of course DACs are then extremely important, but the same applies, in principle, to everything in Hifi. # 2207


Yes, I'm silly no, but the principle is the same
 

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audio2design

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Could be but 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand.

It is because several of us are noting based on acoustic principles why these speakers may have serious imaging flaws. Hence your friend does not need to look for the perfect imaging speaker which does not exist but just find a competent speaker they like. It's all room and personal preference depedent though your description of your friends room suggests a narrower emission may be better.
 
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gn77b

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Certainly this bears further examination, under the standards accepted here at ASR. Your attitude, however is a bit "Dutch" for my taste.
This is funny because it remembered me of this time a Dutch guy told me what he thinks about the typical online audiophile fights but it's something that would get one banned in an online forum. I'm pretty sure some would like that to happen but I'm still hoping this can be a productive discussion.
 
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gn77b

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It is because several of us are noting based on acoustic principles why these speakers may have serious imaging flaws. Hence your friend does not need to look for the perfect imaging speaker which does not exist but just find a competent speaker they like. It's all room and personal preference depedent though your description of your friends room suggests a narrower emission may be better.
I don't understand why you're doing this although I have my guesses. I stated clearly a few times that our listening rooms are different in all ways imaginable. Mine forces me to listen pretty much nearfield, no matter how I try. His is the opposite. Yet the speakers don't change much but hey who are we to trust our own brains when we have strangers who speculate without seeing FR plots, dispersion plots, knowing the exact models of the drivers used, the XO schematics.
 

DanielT

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You who write in this thread know of course this, but for others who read, who may not know it. Regarding room acoustics. See 2:00 in the video. Comparisons, before and after:

 

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gn77b

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I can't play that video for some reason.

The pic you attached though shows something that's incompatible with a regular living room. Good luck finding the wife that will tolerate that. Still, when I heard very good soundstage from various speakers it was in typical rooms. Most sane people will compromise for habitability but it's because it doesn't exclude good sound.
 

eddantes

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You who write in this thread know of course this, but for others who read, who may not know it. Regarding room acoustics. See 2:00 in the video. Comparisons, before and after:

Fixed the link for you

 

eddantes

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Treatment doesn't only mean "acoustic panels" and "bass traps". It can be a thick rug, bookshelves, and some art ...

But seriously... Your manners are lacking. All these people are kindly offering of their time and experience in your aid and nearly every post of yours comes across as attitude. My patience is used up. Unwatched.
 

signalpath

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The best speaker imaging I've heard (L/R, Front-Back, spatial sense) is from a New Zealand speaker called the Wing. It's not a cone speaker, but rather a "wing" assembly. It has the finest waterfall plot I've ever seen, simply because it doesn't have cone resonances. The drawback is that it doesn't play super loud, around 90dB SPL max.. which reminds me of the old Quad electrostatics. disclaimer: I'm on the company's advisory board. https://wingacoustics.com/
 

ahofer

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The best speaker imaging I've heard (L/R, Front-Back, spatial sense) is from a New Zealand speaker called the Wing. It's not a cone speaker, but rather a "wing" assembly. It has the finest waterfall plot I've ever seen, simply because it doesn't have cone resonances. The drawback is that it doesn't play super loud, around 90dB SPL max.. which reminds me of the old Quad electrostatics. disclaimer: I'm on the company's advisory board. https://wingacoustics.com/
I hope some get measured by @amirm or @hardisj . Claims of very wide directivity and response down to 35Hz. 72Db efficiency and 25 watts max continuous power though. Not for your large living room.
 
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gn77b

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Treatment doesn't only mean "acoustic panels" and "bass traps". It can be a thick rug, bookshelves, and some art ...

But seriously... Your manners are lacking. All these people are kindly offering of their time and experience in your aid and nearly every post of yours comes across as attitude. My patience is used up. Unwatched.
Because one of the first replies in the thread was the definition of rudeness.

Here's the thing: simply being a very active member of an online forum that prides itself in objectivity doesn't mean one is automatically some sort of audio guru, especially when such people try to imply that pretty much any speaker can be "fixed" by room acoustics because ironically drivers, crossovers, design principles stop mattering when they feel like it. I'm being told that speakers don't have a signature which is akin to insisting most cars have 5 wheels. The fact that my personal experience is deemed as meaningless, hallucinatory or whatever you wanna call it is interesting.
 
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gn77b

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The best speaker imaging I've heard (L/R, Front-Back, spatial sense) is from a New Zealand speaker called the Wing. It's not a cone speaker, but rather a "wing" assembly. It has the finest waterfall plot I've ever seen, simply because it doesn't have cone resonances. The drawback is that it doesn't play super loud, around 90dB SPL max.. which reminds me of the old Quad electrostatics. disclaimer: I'm on the company's advisory board. https://wingacoustics.com/
This is the type of reply that I was looking for, thanks.
 

Robin L

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This is the type of reply that I was looking for, thanks.
I mentioned the Ohm F speaker before:

300449-2db018b7-ohm_walsh_model__f__speakers__updated__audition_available.jpg


They were designed and manufactured in the USA, mid-1970s. They presented a weird load to amplifiers and went through a series of modifications due to reliability issues. Only one driver, that inverted ice cream cone you see in the photo. The sound is 100% omnidirectional in the horizontal plane. I managed to hear this speaker in an audio store back in the mid-1970s. What stood out was image size, well outside of the speaker boxes, even bigger than the room the speakers were in. Never heard any stereo system sound as big as these speakers. Not bad in the bass, but as I said before, an old design, no longer manufactured, though the Ohm company is still in business, last I looked.
 

hardisj

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The best speaker imaging I've heard (L/R, Front-Back, spatial sense) is from a New Zealand speaker called the Wing. It's not a cone speaker, but rather a "wing" assembly. It has the finest waterfall plot I've ever seen, simply because it doesn't have cone resonances. The drawback is that it doesn't play super loud, around 90dB SPL max.. which reminds me of the old Quad electrostatics. disclaimer: I'm on the company's advisory board. https://wingacoustics.com/

Interesting. Since you’re on the advisory board, have the company send me a pair for review. I’ll send em back when I’m done.
 

audio2design

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This is the type of reply that I was looking for, thanks.

Perhaps this is the problem. You were expecting experienced people to give you wrong answers and we would not do it. You took that as attitude.

You believe that amps can contribute significantly to imaging and they don't unless pushed into significant distortion or have significant impedance based frequency variation and distortion variation that manifests most in untreated rooms. Distortion can also gives a sense of space that while artificial is still pleasant to many.

In a room with well controlled reflections even a bargain basement speaker with cheap drivers, dicey crossover, and iffy cabinet, equalized will provide true imaging accurate to the source material better in most cases to competent accurate speakers in a reflective difficult room. In an untreated room, there are speakers that will image better than other objectively very good speakers by virtue of their designs that interact less with room boundaries.

However many (most?) won't accept perfect imaging at the expense of an artificial but pleasant ambient sound field ... and most due to the room have no choice.

Imaging and soundstage as most define soundstage are two competing not complimentary outcomes. That makes the question flawed from the start or at least imprecise.

So you see your question can't be answered without knowing your friends room in detail: size, furniture, rugs, etc. and what he may be willing to do, nor without understanding his personal preference in presentation.

The issue from where I stand is you are convinced there is a right answer and seem displeased we will not give you one while others know the answer is much more difficult to answer correctly.
 
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DanielT

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Treatment doesn't only mean "acoustic panels" and "bass traps". It can be a thick rug, bookshelves, and some art ...

But seriously... Your manners are lacking. All these people are kindly offering of their time and experience in your aid and nearly every post of yours comes across as attitude. My patience is used up. Unwatched.
Eh, what? I do not claim everything is needed, or appropriate. It was just a video. As such, the video makes sense ..
 

DanielT

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Let me throw another torch into this fire. Audible distortion and speakers. How does it affect the experience?

Edit:
Can you determine if it is the amplifier that is driven into clipping or if, for example, it is the subwoofer itself that starts to distort?

Fascinating that people do not know the difference

 
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