Harman JBL refuses to give spinorama and polar diagram information to prospective HT customers

[sarumbear]

I am considering changing my LCR speakers. I currently use three JBL Professional C222HP speakers. I am very happy with the sound but I am not happy with the viewing angle I now have. The speakers are almost 1.5m (59”) high and that forces the flat screen TV to be mounted too high in order to place the centre speaker below the screen.

@tuga suggested JBL Synthesis SCL-3, which I overlooked originally because they were not listed within the JBL Pro cinema range. I was wrongly expected all JBL cinema speakers to be under one roof. Anyway, within that range SCL-2 looked to be most fitting to my set-up, physically. I downloaded the documents and was pleasantly surprised to read the user manual, which said:

The SCL-2 may be oriented either vertically or horizontally when used as a centre channel speaker.

Here is the layout JBL suggests.

I could see that the horn is symmetrical but I could not understand how an MTM system can be rotated and still offer same polar diagram. I decided to email and ask JBL Synthesis, which you may know is part of Harman International, one of the largest audio companies in the world, and which is now part of Samsung, one of the largest electronic equipment manufacturers.

Furthermore, a single SCL-2 costs around US$9,000. I was enquiring for a purchase totalling US$27,000. On my email I said that I am planning to upgrade from C222HP. Three of them costs US$7,000. I was asking them information so that I can spend further US$20,000 with them.

This is what I received:

The information you request [spinorama and polar diagram] has not been provided by the engineers at this time, thus making it unavailable for consumers. The only available specifications are what's listed in your manual or online through the SCL-2 product page.

I now wonder what is the point of all that work done by those esteemed researchers if the company is not willing to part with basic information? Not to mention most likely offering bad advice in the case of the rotation of the centre speaker.

I feel pretty disillusioned with JBL Harman now...

 

[Dj7675]

I am considering changing my LCR speakers. I currently use three JBL Professional C222HP speakers. I am very happy with the sound but I am not happy with the viewing angle I now have. The speakers are almost 1.5m (59”) high and that forces the flat screen TV to be mounted too high in order to place the centre speaker below the screen.

@tuga suggested JBL Synthesis SCL-3, which I overlooked originally because they were not listed within the JBL Pro cinema range. I was wrongly expected all JBL cinema speakers to be under one roof. Anyway, within that range SCL-2 looked to be most fitting to my set-up, physically. I downloaded the documents and was pleasantly surprised to read the user manual, which said:



Here is the layout JBL suggests.

View attachment 178765

I could see that the horn is symmetrical but I could not understand how an MTM system can be rotated and still offer same polar diagram. I decided to email and ask JBL Synthesis, which you may know is part of Harman International, one of the largest audio companies in the world, and which is now part of Samsung, one of the largest electronic equipment manufacturers.

Furthermore, a single SCL-2 costs around US$9,000. I was enquiring for a purchase totalling US$27,000. On my email I said that I am planning to upgrade from C222HP. Three of them costs US$7,000. I was asking them information so that I can spend further US$20,000 with them.

This is what I received:



I now wonder what is the point of all that work done by those esteemed researchers if the company is not willing to part with basic information? Not to mention most likely offering bad advice in the case of the rotation of the centre speaker.

I feel pretty disillusioned with JBL Harman now...

I was going to post something similiar. It appears to me that Harman is no longer providing the detailed specs/measurements that they did in the past. As you have pointed out, many of these things are very expensive and also hard to demo. It appears to be a trend to me this past year or so on their new stuff.

 

[sarumbear]

I was going to post something similiar. It appears to me that Harman is no longer providing the detailed specs/measurements that they did in the past. As you have pointed out, many of these things are very expensive and also hard to demo. It appears to be a trend to me this past year or so on their new stuff.

They are in wall speakers, impossible to demo! That is why the term architects specification is created.

 

[617]

A horizontal array of woofers will always have narrow and irregular dispersion in the horizontal plane, although I feel like a bit of an idiot telling this to someone whose profile picture is a speaker with a horizontal array of woofers that you designed?

The crossover for the horn would have to be like 300hz for the horizontal dispersion to be respectable, which of course, it is not.

As far as measurements, I find the data sharing policies of manufacturers are inconsistent but I am not surprised Harman wouldn't send you this. They'll publish measurements when it helps their marketing but not to consumers. It is a bit surprising that a professional cinema speaker wouldn't have any data, however.

 

[abdo123]

I really would have a look at the KEF Extreme Theatre in-wall line instead.

Extreme Theatre

Explore home theatre audio excellence with KEF's Home Theatre Collection. Immerse yourself in the ultimate cinematic experience and unparalleled sound quality.

eu.kef.com

 

[sarumbear]

A horizontal array of woofers will always have narrow and irregular dispersion in the horizontal plane, although I feel like a bit of an idiot telling this to someone whose profile picture is a speaker with a horizontal array of woofers that you designed?

The crossover for the horn would have to be like 300hz for the horizontal dispersion to be respectable, which of course, it is not.

As far as measurements, I find the data sharing policies of manufacturers are inconsistent but I am not surprised Harman wouldn't send you this. They'll publish measurements when it helps their marketing but not to consumers. It is a bit surprising that a professional cinema speaker wouldn't have any data, however.

If you are referring to the Silver 5L speakers, their woofers works parallel below 300Hz only. At that frequency the wave length is many multiples of the distance between the drivers and will work as a single driver.

The driver offsite to the tweeter is fed by a 300Hz 3dB/octave filter to compensate the 2pi to 4pi transition. (These days they call this a 2.5 design.) At the 1500Hz crossover frequency to the tweeter the 2nd low frequency driver is at -15dB, low enough not to cause major loping.

PS. FYI, the correct term for dispersion is directivity pattern, polar response/diagram.

 

[617]

If you are referring to the Silver 5L speakers, their woofers works parallel below 300Hz. At that frequency the wave length is many multiples of the distance between the drivers and will work as a single driver.

The driver offsite to the tweeter is fed by a 300Hz 3dB/octave filter to compensate the 2pi to 4pi transition. (These days they call this a 2.5 design.) At the 1500Hz crossover frequency with the tweeter the 2nd low frequency driver is at -15dB, low enough not to cause major loping.

PS. FYI, the correct term for dispersion is directivity pattern, polar response/diagram.

I'm not questioning your design! I've looked at it before, it is quite novel and sophisticated. I'm just asking, why would you think the JBL product you are considering would offer satisfactory performance knowing what you know about horizontally arrayed woofers?

I mean yes the compression driver is more robust than a dome tweeter, but I'd be amazed if it's operating below 800hz, which means the woofers ARE operating at 800hz, etc.

 

[sarumbear]

I'm not questioning your design! I've looked at it before, it is quite novel and sophisticated. I'm just asking, why would you think the JBL product you are considering would offer satisfactory performance knowing what you know about horizontally arrayed woofers?

Well that is why I asked them detailed information. Innocent and until proved guilty but instead of answering they seem to have lawyered

I mean yes the compression driver is more robust than a dome tweeter, but I'd be amazed if it's operating below 800hz, which means the woofers ARE operating at 800hz, etc.

I agree as that is what physics point. However, I do not have experience in horns and their limits, hence I asked them for data.

 

[KSTR]

If those have a proper XO then directivity could be fine vertically as well, not as nice as horizontally but still good enough unless your living room is an echo chamber.

JBL is just a label these days....

 

[sarumbear]

If those have a proper XO then directivity could be fine vertically as well, not as nice as horizontally but still good enough unless your living room is an echo chamber.

Have you viewed any MTM centre speakers reviews and noticed the directivity errors?

 

[617]

Well that is why I asked them detailed information. Innocent and until proved guilty but instead of answering they seem to have lawyered

I agree as that is what physics point. However, I do not have experience in horns and their limits, hence I asked them for data.

Well you know how the woofers will behave, so best case scenario, at the crossover region, the compression driver will have the same spatial behavior. So the best you can expect is narrow dispersion. In reality there will be a big mismatch, however, since the horn is symmetrical. In one axis it is the same width as the woofers, and in the other axis it is much narrower. So, basically the same issues as with a baffle mounted tweeter.

The KEF units have coaxial drivers which work much, much better in this application. I would seriously consider those for the CC; coaxial designs are the best way to make a horizontally oriented speaker with wide coverage, and KEF makes the best coaxial drivers, at least in the domestic space.

 

[KSTR]

Have you viewed any MTM centre speakers reviews and noticed the directivity errors?

Sure. That does not take away anything from my statement.
With MTM you have at least a chance to get it right (or at least symmetrical which is more important IMHO), whereas a MT placed horizontally is doomed from the start.

Unless you're paranoid about directivity, that is...

 

[sarumbear]

The KEF units have coaxial drivers which work much, much better in this application. I would seriously consider those for the CC; coaxial designs are the best way to make a horizontally oriented speaker with wide coverage, and KEF makes the best coaxial drivers, at least in the domestic space.

I was mistaken when I first looked at the KEF in-wall range. I haven't realised that they use co-axial speakers. That changes everything. Thank you for pointing that out and apologies to @abdo123 for disregarding his suggestion out-of-hand.

I will enquire more on the following model. It is in the same price range as the JBL one I was interested.

Ci3160REFM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

 

[KSTR]

What's also important is if they got the 2.5-way thing right. IME all passive 2.5-way are incorrect here, and maybe 90% of the actives ones as well.

 

[sarumbear]

Unless you're paranoid about directivity, that is...

I have a lot of friends

 

[sarumbear]

What's also important is if they got the 2.5-way thing right. IME all passive 2.5-way are incorrect here, and maybe 90% of the actives ones as well.

I assume by "they" you mean JBL.

How does the 10% active MTM models work correctly as a centre speaker?

 

[abdo123]

I was mistaken when I first looked at the KEF in-wall range. I haven't realised that they use co-axial speakers. That changes everything. Thank you for pointing that out and apologies for @abdo123 for disregarding his suggestion out-of-hand.

I will enquire more on the following model. It is in the same price range as the JBL one I was interested.

Ci3160REFM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

This model uses 10th Generation coaxial drivers (Reference series), while the white one uses 11th generation (R series).

I recommend to have a look at the white models since they're all 11th generation, I'm not sure what the difference is exactly between the two generations but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[sarumbear]

This model uses 10th Generation coaxial drivers (Reference series), while the white one uses 11th generation (R series).

I recommend to have a look at the white models since they're all 11th generation, I'm not sure what the difference is exactly between the two generations but it's something to keep in mind.

The black/copper (REF) series is 4x more expensive than the white/silver models. Which one is 10th, which one is 11th series?

GB£8,500

Ci5160REFM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

GB£2,000

Ci5160RLM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

 

[abdo123]

The black/copper (REF) series is 4x more expensive than the white/silver models. Which one is 10th, which one is 11th series?

GB£8,500

Ci5160REFM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

GB£2,000

Ci5160RLM-THX

View KEF's wireless HiFi audio system speakers. Drawing on decades of acoustic expertise, each provides outstanding clarity with several connectivity options.

uk.kef.com

The one that promises 'Reference Series' performance (black and copper) is 10th generation.

The one that promises 'R Series' performance (white and silver) is 11th generation.

I honestly don't know what the difference between the two is, there are several white papers by KEF on both the R series and the Reference series to draw hints from (with spinoramas). I would check these out to draw some rough opinions on the differences.

 

[sarumbear]

The one that promises 'Reference Series' performance (black and copper) is 10th generation.

The one that promises 'R Series' performance (white and silver) is 11th generation.

I honestly don't know what the difference between the two is, there are several white papers by KEF on both the R series and the Reference series to draw hints from (with spinoramas). I would check these out to draw some rough opinions on the differences.

Thank you. My work is cut out.