Audyssey XT32 vs Dirac Live

[Dougey_Jones]

Based on the opinions and comments I've read in some threads here recently there seem to be people with very strong negative opinions about the sound that Dirac Live produces. I have an Onkyo TX-RZ50 on order that I can still cancel if I wanted to go with a Denon X3700 instead. Did I make the wrong choice by choosing the receiver with Dirac?

 

[abdo123]

No you didn't, Dirac is great if not the best affordable commercial solution out there.

 

[AlexanderM]

Based on the opinions and comments I've read in some threads here recently there seem to be people with very strong negative opinions about the sound that Dirac Live produces. I have an Onkyo TX-RZ50 on order that I can still cancel if I wanted to go with a Denon X3700 instead. Did I make the wrong choice by choosing the receiver with Dirac?

Strictly based on what I've read in these forums, people think Dirac Live is the way to go, without question!!!

 

[617]

I have no opinion either way but I'm pretty sure Dirac is vastly more sophisticated.

 

[Golfx]

On the contrary, Dirac is highly regarded as the best for bass management and certainly at or better than audyssey for the rest of the sonic range.

 

[Dj7675]

Based on the opinions and comments I've read in some threads here recently there seem to be people with very strong negative opinions about the sound that Dirac Live produces. I have an Onkyo TX-RZ50 on order that I can still cancel if I wanted to go with a Denon X3700 instead. Did I make the wrong choice by choosing the receiver with Dirac?

Two cents.. completely unscientific, but I have used both in quite a few systems now
-Full range EQ I think is quite a bit better than Audyssey
-If running 2 subs Audyssey does pretty well except for the sub/mains integration
-If the Dirac receiver isn’t capable of doing DLBC it complicates things IMO. If using multiple subs for best results you might need to use a MiniDSP
-I don’t know if the unit you are considering does DLBC but it is something to consider and/or waiting for a model that does. I’ve been using DLBC for a while and it really does an amazing job with subs and sub/mains integration.
Good luck!

 

[dlaloum]

It appears (with gradually increasing levels of confidence... pinch of salt still needed) - that an Onkyo TX-RZ70 & RZ90 will be released sometime this year, which will support DLBC.

Of course given the delays between release and stock actually being available - getting ones hands on one might best be planned for 2023!

Having said that, I have ordered an Integra DRX 3.4 (equivalent to the Onkyo TX-NR7100, but with a full set of Pre-outs) - which will be upgraded/replaced by a DLBC capable Integra/Onkyo unit, when they become available.

I have used Audyssey XT32 for some years - and been underwhelmed - it is highly likely that the new version with the adjustable EQ to eliminate that nasty Midrange dip would resolve it, and I would be perfectly happy with Audyssey... but I have heard DIRAC standalone at a number of audio shows over the last 6 or 7 years - and it sounded great, and seemed to be the go-to system for the "technologically engaged" audiophile...

I am keen to try it, and the price is right on the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR's (substantially cheaper, by 25%+ where I am, than the X3700)

From my households perspective, the main functionality that is lacking on the Onkyo family, is a Night time listening mode, with a proper loudness compensation curve for listening at night, or with loudness challenged family members.... Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a great feature, and DIRAC has nothing like it - which is a sad gap in feature set - but reflects the audiophile orientation - We shall see how things pan out, I plan to use one of the DIRAC slots, as a loudness compensate custom EQ.

As to whether the TX-RZ50 is the best option for you... - if you don't need pre-outs, and the 100W the X3700 provide is enough, why not opt for the TX-NR7100?
Also worth looking at availability and pricing of the other members of the Onkyo family (Pioneer LX305 & LX505, Integra DRX 3.4 & 5.4) - they all seem to share the same processing (including Dirac) with the upper models in each Brand having 120W amps, and the lower ones 100W... Pre-outs vary a bit on the lower models. Depending on where you are one brand or the other may be cheaper.

My shortlist ended up being DRX 3.4 vs X3700h.... and having waited 4 months now for the AVR.... I am holding on for that stock to finally turn up!!!

 

[tifune]

Based on the opinions and comments I've read in some threads here recently there seem to be people with very strong negative opinions about the sound that Dirac Live produces. I have an Onkyo TX-RZ50 on order that I can still cancel if I wanted to go with a Denon X3700 instead. Did I make the wrong choice by choosing the receiver with Dirac?

You haven't mentioned your use case. It's relevant because feature set can trump room correction. For example if you want to use Auro for upmixing none of the options suggested here so far can help, Dirac or not.

Speaker layout as well - 9.2 is probably more than adequate for most people, but you may not be most people? if you have low sensitivity front speakers and/or no subs plus you're sitting 12ft away youre probably looking at external amplification which may or may not be in your budget.

These are just common examples. Room treatment options, if any, would be another. Outlining your use case can help flesh out details that may be more important than room correction (although it's definitely a top 5 consideration, I agree). That is, of course, unless you already reached a conclusion on all these things.

 

[XpanD]

I have used Audyssey XT32 for some years - and been underwhelmed - it is highly likely that the new version with the adjustable EQ to eliminate that nasty Midrange dip would resolve it, and I would be perfectly happy with Audyssey... but I have heard DIRAC standalone at a number of audio shows over the last 6 or 7 years - and it sounded great, and seemed to be the go-to system for the "technologically engaged" audiophile...

Are you referring to the brand new MultEQ-X there, or the $20 phone app? For what it's worth, the phone app will allow you to disable that dip as well! Using XT32 without it is really limiting, I had similar "meh" experiences until I got that app up and running and added my own custom curves and the like. After that point I actually found it pretty comparable to Dirac's first iteration, and it handled desk bounce way better in my old small room.

With that said, XT32 is a dinosaur of a system. Dirac's had a good few years of development since, so the issues I had with it back in v1 are probably long gone now. I am curious to see what MultEQ-X will bring to the table, though! Interesting times for sure.

 

[dlaloum]

Are you referring to the brand new MultEQ-X there, or the $20 phone app? For what it's worth, the phone app will allow you to disable that dip as well! Using XT32 without it is really limiting, I had similar "meh" experiences until I got that app up and running and added my own custom curves and the like. After that point I actually found it pretty comparable to Dirac's first iteration, and it handled desk bounce way better in my old small room.

With that said, XT32 is a dinosaur of a system. Dirac's had a good few years of development since, so the issues I had with it back in v1 are probably long gone now. I am curious to see what MultEQ-X will bring to the table, though! Interesting times for sure.

I was thinking of the $20 phone app, and its ability to disable the dip...

That dip is the primary thing that has caused Audyssey to be a waste of time in my system... with the app's ability to remove the dip, and to set my own "house" target curve, I would almost certainly be happy with it.

But it wouldn't scratch that itch.... what has DIRAC got to offer in MY system....

(the outcome may well, be: Nothing Much .... and I might end up getting rid of the DIRAC AVR and going back to the Denon X3700 or X4700...)

 

[Prolix]

In my limited experience with Dirac it created a naturally full, pleasing response, while Audyssey tends to sound comparatively thin and lifeless. I think dirac's eq just works better.

Also, when using audyssey without the multieq app the only way to add bass to the thin sounding default curve is to turn up the subs. You can't add bass to the speakers without disabling audyssey.

The one downside I experienced with dirac is that it made the center image kind of indistinct. I don't know if that was user error or working as intended.

 

[Dj7675]

In my limited experience with Dirac it created a naturally full, pleasing response, while Audyssey tends to sound comparatively thin and lifeless. I think dirac's eq just works better.

Also, when using audyssey without the multieq app the only way to add bass to the thin sounding default curve is to turn up the subs. You can't add bass to the speakers without disabling audyssey.

The one downside I experienced with dirac is that it made the center image kind of indistinct. I don't know if that was user error or working as intended.

A few more thoughts...
-Many of the criticisms of Audyssey are room curve related. Default room curves are too flat and sound bad.
-For years, Audyssey owners have “just turned up the sub”. This actually does make things sound much better, but will actually change the crossovers of the mains/sub integration.
-Use of the app and now their pc program changes this as you can use a room curve now. However, note that you do need to boost sub level by the same dB as you boost in your room curve to get the proper level of output and to match the crossover. If you simply add a boost with the app, the sub output will be low. I always had to do post Audyssey REW measurements to make sure all was working as it should.
-I don’t have Audyssey any more, but if I did, I would consider the new pc app (hopefully they figure out better licensing) because using the Audyssey app with a lot of speakers is pretty time consuming and imprecise.
-I wouldn’t know why Dirac would make the image not distinct, unless the room curve changed the frequency response of the speaker in a way that no longer sounded good. Might see if the room curve you are using is changing the upper frequencies too much, or limit correction

 

[tparm]

Everything @Dj7675 said is spot on. Emotiva's integration of Dirac is lacking so a blanket statement one is great and one is inferior is an over-statement. From what I've seen the PC (basically PEQ-ish) platform for Audyssey is pretty excellent. I use Anthem ARC Genesis now and really like it.

Regardless, its nice there are tons of videos and threads on various forums for all these platforms, use them. I'd say threads are better as some 'tubers simply have clue what they are talking about.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

It appears (with gradually increasing levels of confidence... pinch of salt still needed) - that an Onkyo TX-RZ70 & RZ90 will be released sometime this year, which will support DLBC.

Of course given the delays between release and stock actually being available - getting ones hands on one might best be planned for 2023!

Having said that, I have ordered an Integra DRX 3.4 (equivalent to the Onkyo TX-NR7100, but with a full set of Pre-outs) - which will be upgraded/replaced by a DLBC capable Integra/Onkyo unit, when they become available.

I have used Audyssey XT32 for some years - and been underwhelmed - it is highly likely that the new version with the adjustable EQ to eliminate that nasty Midrange dip would resolve it, and I would be perfectly happy with Audyssey... but I have heard DIRAC standalone at a number of audio shows over the last 6 or 7 years - and it sounded great, and seemed to be the go-to system for the "technologically engaged" audiophile...

I am keen to try it, and the price is right on the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR's (substantially cheaper, by 25%+ where I am, than the X3700)

From my households perspective, the main functionality that is lacking on the Onkyo family, is a Night time listening mode, with a proper loudness compensation curve for listening at night, or with loudness challenged family members.... Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a great feature, and DIRAC has nothing like it - which is a sad gap in feature set - but reflects the audiophile orientation - We shall see how things pan out, I plan to use one of the DIRAC slots, as a loudness compensate custom EQ.

As to whether the TX-RZ50 is the best option for you... - if you don't need pre-outs, and the 100W the X3700 provide is enough, why not opt for the TX-NR7100?
Also worth looking at availability and pricing of the other members of the Onkyo family (Pioneer LX305 & LX505, Integra DRX 3.4 & 5.4) - they all seem to share the same processing (including Dirac) with the upper models in each Brand having 120W amps, and the lower ones 100W... Pre-outs vary a bit on the lower models. Depending on where you are one brand or the other may be cheaper.

My shortlist ended up being DRX 3.4 vs X3700h.... and having waited 4 months now for the AVR.... I am holding on for that stock to finally turn up!!!

I do need pre-outs. I’m using external amplification for all channels. It was really Dirac vs XT32 in me choosing the Onkyo or the Denon. I guess I also like the fact that the Onkyo is THX certified and has IMAX sound modes.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

You haven't mentioned your use case. It's relevant because feature set can trump room correction. For example if you want to use Auro for upmixing none of the options suggested here so far can help, Dirac or not.

Speaker layout as well - 9.2 is probably more than adequate for most people, but you may not be most people? if you have low sensitivity front speakers and/or no subs plus you're sitting 12ft away youre probably looking at external amplification which may or may not be in your budget.

These are just common examples. Room treatment options, if any, would be another. Outlining your use case can help flesh out details that may be more important than room correction (although it's definitely a top 5 consideration, I agree). That is, of course, unless you already reached a conclusion on all these things.

Howdy, sorry, I have notifications disabled so it took me actually circling back to this thread in my own meandering way before I saw your reply.

I decided to keep my pre-order for the RZ50, I'll lay out my use case below so that you (and whoever else) can provide feedback on how well it should all work:

Room: 12 x 28' with 8' ceilings. Porcelain tile floor. Planning to build my own wall/ceiling room treatments out of plywood and matching fabric with rockwool as the main absorptive material. Will also make sure to have some rugs and a good sized couch to break up the large run of hard floor surface.

Configuration: 7.2 - Monitor Audio Gold Reference bookshelves for front L/R, matching Center channel which will be arranged vertically on a stand for dispersion reasons (I guess?). Side and Rear Surround channels will be in-ceiling Monolith (Monoprice) units adjusted so they are pointed at the seating position - https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13687

Dual subs - One Bag End 18" positioned in the front left corner of the room and a Sunfire TS-EQ12 in the back right opposing corner firing at each-other. I'm assuming since the receiver has dual sub outputs and Dirac I'll be able to get these to play nice together?

Since the RZ50 has pre-amp outputs for all channels, I'll be using external amplification for the front soundstage. A pair of rebuilt and customized PS-Audio Trio-A100 dual mono amps, one to bi-amp the center channel and the other to power the front L/R. The receiver should power the two pairs of surround speakers handily I would think.

Thoughts?

 

[GalZohar]

I don't think it has 2 independent subwoofer outputs (with separate delay)? And no DLBC?

 

[dlaloum]

The two sub outputs are not individual (basically an internal Y cable), and no DLBC.

Keep in mind that the RZ50 is not a flagship model... that will be the RZ70 / RZ90

I would assume that they top models will have DLBC and/or the new Dirac feature that Dirac have been coy about (Unison?)

But yes, the current AVR's won't be able to optimise Subs seperately - so you need an external solution...

 

[Dougey_Jones]

The two sub outputs are not individual (basically an internal Y cable), and no DLBC.

Keep in mind that the RZ50 is not a flagship model... that will be the RZ70 / RZ90

I would assume that they top models will have DLBC and/or the new Dirac feature that Dirac have been coy about (Unison?)

But yes, the current AVR's won't be able to optimise Subs seperately - so you need an external solution...

Do the Denon's with XT32 have true dual sub outputs that optimize each output separately?

 

[peng]

Do the Denon's with XT32 have true dual sub outputs that optimize each output separately?

In terms of hardware, they are independent/separate in the sense that each has its own DAC and volume control output. For EQ, Audyssey SubEQ HT would volume match and time align the two, and then EQ them as one. According to Audyssey, that is the right way to do it (obviously).

 

[GalZohar]

In terms of hardware, they are independent/separate in the sense that each has its own DAC and volume control output. For EQ, Audyssey SubEQ HT would volume match and time align the two, and then EQ them as one. According to Audyssey, that is the right way to do it (obviously).

Well, at least it's supposedly better than EQing each individually and independently. But yeah, seems like there are much better ways to do it, but they require additional hardware. It might be possible to get reasonable results with a Y splitter and some DSP built-in to the sub for delay/phase and PEQ?

Anyway, looks like the Audyssey solution is a "better than nothing, but worse than any reasonable external solution" kind of thing.