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[Topping] DX3 Pro coming soon

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yue

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Balanced DAC/amps are pointless. I might upgrade to a single ended D50/A50 if such a thing existed.
most DAC/amps discussed here are pointless. They are solely good for engineering, not for practical use. for playback direct output from the headphone jacks of my macbook pro and iphones are already good enough --- amirm can test but I'm pretty confident they are good enough.
high resolution audio is only useful for recording, not for playback.
 

Grave

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most DAC/amps discussed here are pointless. They are solely good for engineering, not for practical use. for playback direct output from the headphone jacks of my macbook pro and iphones are already good enough --- amirm can test but I'm pretty confident they are good enough.
high resolution audio is only useful for recording, not for playback.

Nope. Integrated sound is generally shit. I am not saying it cannot be good, but the integrated sound I have tried has sounded terrible.
 
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yue

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Nope. Integrated sound is generally shit. I am not saying it cannot be good, but the integrated sound I have tried has sounded terrible.

Probably true for poorly designed motherboard a decade ago.
But I cannot tell the difference between my ODAC vs my iPhone 5 (released in 2012) or Macbook Pro (2017), using an HD650.
 

Veri

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Then you probably shouldn't bother with spending money on hi-fi equipment in that case.

He's right though. Do you claim that you in fact, are able to separate the "high-end" DACs from the mainstream/common ones?
 

maxxevv

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He's right though. Do you claim that you in fact, are able to separate the "high-end" DACs from the mainstream/common ones?

As with all hearing related premises ... its completely subjective.

As it is, if Yue is not hearing a difference between what's listed above, then why pursue this subjective hobby ? Its "close shop' and just enjoy whatever that comes along. What's wrong with that premise ?
 
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yue

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As with all hearing related premises ... its completely subjective.

As it is, if Yue is not hearing a difference between what's listed above, then why pursue this subjective hobby ? Its "close shop' and just enjoy whatever that comes along. What's wrong with that premise ?

Nothing wrong. People are different, and they are free to choose what's right for them. I use my iPhone or macbook pro for playback. You may find a dedicated dac/amp is needed.

Also for many tracks I can reliably tell the difference between 320kbps mp3 and redbook cd when hearing very closely. But I can't hear any difference between redbook cd and hi-res formats beyond redbook. So I don't bother with hi-res music.

My comment was to replay Grave's comments:

Balanced DAC/amps are pointless. I might upgrade to a single ended D50/A50 if such a thing existed.

I said yes it is pointless because in my opinion most audiophile grade equipments are pointless for playback --- onboard DACs today are exceptionally good and any artifacts are well below human hearing range; onboard amps on macbook pro and iphones are good enough for volume under safe hearing range (<90db) so I never find dedicated amps necessary for people with normal hearing.

But there're people who believe they can hear the difference between hifi equipments and consumer ones.
So balanced output/hi-res/etc. created a market that cater to them.
I'm not sure if that matters to humans scientifically (only careful ab test can tell. I once did a few ab tests for people who claim they could, but none is able to pass the test reliably.),
but it does create jobs, generate GDP, and make better engineering products.
So I'm fully supportive for companies (such as topping and smsl) to create better products that has great benchmark.
 
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sonci

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onboard DACs today are exceptionally good and any artifacts are well below human hearing range

those on cd players are pretty good. I prefer them to external Dacs,
 

maverickronin

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onboard DACs today are exceptionally good and any artifacts are well below human hearing range

Some of them are, some of them aren't. Some may work with some headphone but not others due to huge differences in efficiency. Some inefficient models may not get louder than a whisper while others may be too efficient and leave you with more hiss than a snake pit.

IMO the best reason for an external DAC or amp is that it makes for one less thing you have to worry about when buying a new laptop/tablet/motherboard/etc. It will probably last through several such devices as well.
 

Grave

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Probably true for poorly designed motherboard a decade ago.
But I cannot tell the difference between my ODAC vs my iPhone 5 (released in 2012) or Macbook Pro (2017), using an HD650.

Nope, I build PC's with good motherboards.

I would not ever buy an Apple product because they are ridiculously overpriced.
 
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yue

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Nope, I build PC's with good motherboards.

I would not ever buy an Apple product because they are ridiculously overpriced.

Fancy DACs discussed in this forum are even more ridiculously overpriced.

For $300 you can only buy a mid-end DAC/amp combo (such as ODAC+Objective 2, or a A30+D30). Most products here are much more expensive than $300.
But iPhone SE costs only ~ $300 officially and you have great audio output in addition to great digital media player, great phone/wireless capability, camera, advanced operating system that keeps updating for 5+ yrs, nice software distribution market, etc.
Various dealers sell brand new iPhone SE below $150 (for instance Walmart ). For $150 bucks you'll have very limited options for a Dac/amp --- perhaps the only two practical choices are Topping NX4 DSD and Fiio Q1 mkii.

If you look this way, Apple products are super cheap for their capability and quality.
 
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maverickronin

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The DAC could transparent but that headphone out is going to have trouble with plenty of models so you'll at least need an extra amp unless you want to carefully match impedance curves and sensitivities.
 
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yue

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The DAC could transparent but that headphone out is going to have trouble with plenty of models so you'll at least need an extra amp unless you want to carefully match impedance curves and sensitivities.

I once tested with an iPhone 5c (3 generations older than the SE) and Objective 2 using my HD650, which most people considered difficult to drive.
With the same output volume I can barely tell the difference in an abx test.
 

maverickronin

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I once tested with an iPhone 5c (3 generations older than the SE) and Objective 2 using my HD650, which most people considered difficult to drive.
With the same output volume I can barely tell the difference in an abx test.

I would mostly agree with you on that one but, contrary to the received audiophile opinion, I don't think the HD650 is that hard to "drive"

Due to it's low-ish sensitivity plenty of people might want more volume than most onboard headphone outs can provide but it's 300 ohm nominal impedance makes it an easy load for such current starved outputs keeping what voltage it can provide clean. With the limited volume in mind, my HD650s sound pretty similar no matter what I plug them into.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about any audiophile magic here, just some just some basic physics you can mostly work out with ohm's law.

Balanced armature IEMs usually need a ~1 ohm output impedance to prevent their FR from changing. Even pleanty of dedicated amps don't met that spec. Others are super sensitive and are very susceptible to hiss, requiring an external amp to be used as an attenuator/buffer in order to kill the hiss by maximizing the dynamic range of the source.

Plenty of full size headphones may sound just fine from onboard sound but most will be limited in volume. Some planars in particular are very inefficient and won't even reach moderate levels without a dedicated amp.

If you're recommending something to someone on a tight budget or who's just looking for something nicer than what they have and who won't be upgrading to a new headphone they like slightly better a few times a year then it won't be to find a set of headphones they'll like and which won't have any of those problems with an iphone's headout that I mentioned above. If one wants to keep their options open and can afford to splurge a little then a external DAC/amp is a better choice.

Versatility is the key point. If a new IEM comes out and reviewers you trust have said good things about it do you want to have to worry about its crazy high sensitivity or impedance curve which looks like a boutique speaker and has enormous peaks in all the wrong places? Are you going to scratch the hot new full size off your list because the sensitivity is too low?

Not worrying about a device's onboard sound also gives you a lot more options when choosing new devices. It frees up a variable and let you focus on other features and specs. It's also a variable that's rarely covered in most tech reviews anyway which makes the ability to ignore it all the more valuable. From the measurements I've seen Apple's products are reliably decent, but that also assumes you like playing in their walled garden or aren't already heavily invested in someone else's. For a lot of people the Topping NX4 or JDS Element would be a bargain compared to re-buying copies or equivilents of all their apps on the other app store.

As for hardware cost, Apple's phones are competitive, but for desktops and laptops a Windows or Linux build plus an separate DAC/amp will be cheaper. A seperate DAC and amp will most likely last longer than the phone, tablet, or laptop one pairs it with and maintain higher resale value to boot.

Dedicated DACs or amps don't always provide audibly better performance in every situation and certainly aren't the most value driven proposition but they win hands down in versatility.
 

derp1n

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The cognitive dissonance in this thread is spectacular.
 

Keltere

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Balanced DAC/amps are pointless. I might upgrade to a single ended D50/A50 if such a thing existed.
For headset ok but what if i want to use some studio monitors?
 
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How is wireless streaming on DAC/Amps? Any good/reliable? Thinking specifically in terms of SQ, but also in terms of latency, if I were to connect my PC through bluetooth to them, and watch videos.
 
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yue

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How is wireless streaming on DAC/Amps? Any good/reliable? Thinking specifically in terms of SQ, but also in terms of latency, if I were to connect my PC through bluetooth to them, and watch videos.
they are not bit perfect so not good.
 

mi-fu

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Topping seemed to remove the news of DX3 pro and its related photos. :rolleyes:
 
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