Revel Concerta2 C25 Review (Center Speaker)

[KxDx]

Yikes, me thinks you simply do not like the home theatre experience.

Unless ONLY YOU sit dead center and watch movies, a Center speaker is EXTREMELY important for the overall experience.
You are basically just watching stereo TV, not surround sound with a 2.1 mix.

Nothing really wrong with that. I've been running 2.0 in the living room for just over 2 years now. As long as dialogue is clear and it gets as loud as anyone listening wants, everyone is happy.

When the sub went away nobody really cared (my wife didn't miss it, since she often had to sleep during days and evenings). When the center and rear speakers went away, nobody cared then either. I was surprised at first that I didn't miss having surround, but that's how it went.

 

[Dj7675]

Sorry i'm not buying it

In my room this:

Becomes this (my subwoofer is flat to 50Hz anechoically):

View attachment 175770

Guess I am just not getting your point. My measurement shown is of the before response, no room curve shown, no predicted after, and not the after measurement.. But this is straying too far from the review, and not important anyway..

 

[Steve Dallas]

Why don't they make it vented to help the low-end output? Apart from that its excellent, not everybody has the space to put up a big center speaker.

Really like to see how the Kef R2c performs, that seems to be a smarter design but still relatively compact.

These are often treated as lifestyle speakers and shoved into cabinets or up against walls. Sealed designs work much better in these environments and benefit from boundary gain to compensate.

I have this speaker, and with a 80-100Hz crossover to a pair of subs, bass is not a problem at all. (The dealer threw the speaker in when I purchased my F206s at a discount, because they had too many in inventory and could not get the C205 at the time. Strange situation.)

The sweet spot is more of a problem, but I am the only one in the family who cares, so it is not a practical problem at my house.

I was thinking of "upgrading" to the C205, but with measurements like these, I believe I will just enjoy what I have!

[Cannot remember if the 205 is a 2.5 way, which may have wider directivity? More inert cabinet to help with the resonances?]

 

[Hydrav]

The only limitation is from those sources that do not offer a 2.1 sound options, only a 5.1, just a few among the movies I choose to watch.

I thought modern AVRs had the option of downmixing 5.1 audio to 2.1, creating a phantom center from the front L/R speakers?

Yikes, me thinks you simply do not like the home theatre experience.

Unless ONLY YOU sit dead center and watch movies, a Center speaker is EXTREMELY important for the overall experience.
You are basically just watching stereo TV, not surround sound with a 2.1 mix.

If you sit dead in the center, or 2-3 people sit very close in the center, could a good 2.1 setup not be superior to a poor 3.1 setup?

I wonder if anyone has ever tried disabling their center and using their L/R to run a phantom center.

It seems to me that one problem with the center speaker is placement. You can't get the tweeter to ear level because the TV is in the way. So you have to put it underneath the TV and point it up, which some people don't do correctly. Furthermore poor vertical directivity of many cheaper center speakers can compound this problem. All of this means dialogue becomes less intelligible.

However compare this with a good 2.1 setup with two floorstanding speakers which create a phantom center. There are no placement issues, you can easily get the tweeter ear height and toed in, alleviating the center speaker placement issues. Could this in theory not provide better center and more intelligible dialogue?

 

[abdo123]

Guess I am just not getting your point. My measurement shown is of the before response, no room curve shown, no predicted after, and not the after measurement.. But this is straying too far from the review, and not important anyway..

my first room mode (49Hz) peaks at +20 dB, while your subwoofer doesn't even go above +10dB across the entire spectrum. I was trying to explain that your subwoofer levels are too low in your calibration and this might cause the C10 to be over-driven, specially with the very low crossover point.

but your processor is very sophisticated so i'm guessing the subwoofer and speaker levels are adjusted independently afterwards, what's measured in the calibration is not optimal in my opinion (subwoofer is 10dB quieter than speaker).

 

[Rottmannash]

The center should be able to operate down to about 80Hz.

I have center speakers that DO this and lower, and they do sound better than the ones that roll off in the mid 100s-200hz

The reason they make this design is, it is a mild trade off, and not all people are bothered by the tonality change due to be somewhat off axis.
This forum puts a lot of focus on this aspect and often will downplay other aspects that are less than stellar.

I think that focus is somewhat just "Baked" into this forum.


Not saying it is not an issue, but in practice it may bother a dozen guys (or more) in here, but doubt many people, even those into audio like most of us, find it be some huge deal breaker, or something that inhibits enjoying a movie.....

I have to agree-most of my friends who come listen to movies wouldn't realize they're not getting the same exact sound I'm getting (of course I'm smack dab in the middle of the sound field) so it's not an issue. They just like the big OLED screen and the zillion speakers surrounding them. Ignorance can be bliss..

 

[MZKM]

I don't fully understand the matematics involved ..Can someone explain why with such a narrow horizontal beamwidth between 500 and 2500Hz and an abrupt widening above that, with a vertical that is almost regular and textbook perfect and doesn't compensate ( overdo) that bottleneck area with a widening there, nor there is significant boost of spl in the on axis response, we get such a good spinorama, with almost no anomalies in that critical region?
Is the spinorama an adequate yardstick for special use loudspeakers such as these?
I first thought, wow, they somehow made an incredible low crossover point work with that tweeter/waveguide , maybe sacrified distortion a little distortion ( no, actually one of the lowest I've seen here, great job), when I first saw the spin, but no breakthrough there, the crossover looks to be at the usual region as we infer from the beamwidth trace problems.
Probably a nice choice upright, with two for stereo, but, I am curious you ( Amir) didn't complain, as we know you prefer a robust low end, was the subjective impression not exactly what the measurements show?
On another vein, that peak filter on 115 Hz, that's my subjectivity guilty pleasure ..
I Eq my Senn 800S on the DAC as per measurements but I put the same extra narrow 3db bump there for seasoning, it gives me back the slight lack of impact on bass and drums I experience on them, and a slightly warmer sound without muddying anything.

The great vertical performance offsets the poor horizontal performance. Well, you can see that the listening window is not close to the on-axis in the crossover region.

But yes, it can be confusing.

 

[Helicopter]

...

The sweet spot is more of a problem, but I am the only one in the family who cares, so it is not a practical problem at my house.
...

Do whatever you want but do not sit in Steve's seat!

 

[ROOSKIE]

Granted, KEF has a 30 year head start developing coaxial drivers, but I'm pretty sure Kali Audio, a small manufacturer with something like 20 employees, developed their own rather decent coaxial drivers for their IN-line of studio monitors.
Revel Audio, the luxury brand of mighty Harman International Industries, must be capable of doing that as well.

I think KEF still has many patents that have yet to expire on some of the best coaxial tricks.
I think we will see more coaxial stuff soon. (Jbl does have a coaxial mini monitor)
I think that since KEF is not making pro monitors their patents don't apply as much in that arena.
At any rate KEF has put huge RND in. I wouldn't underestimate the costs involved unless one just copies KEF which as suggested above could be very tricky to do legally.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Funny when I have guests in my house I always give up the best seat or at least make things equal.
In any case this style of design can do no better than "not terrible" IMHO.
Over and over again this narrow horz dispertion just doesn't really qualify for center duty.
Obviously a lot of engineering and thought went into these except for forcing the whole ultimate design into a weak foundation.
3 of these used vertically (or 2 for stereo) would likely sound very, very good though. Heck even 5 of them for 5.x.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

To understand the compromises of a phantom center try watching a section of a movie with dialog from an actor at center screen coming from the center speaker and compare the same dialog with a phantom center. The phantom center has the dialog coming equally from LR and your auditory system needs to process this to convince you that the dialog is coming from a single source at the center of the screen where the actor's lips are moving.

It's similar to the ventriloquism effect where we see the dummy's lips moving and interpret the ventriloquist's voice as coming from the dummy. But if we close our eyes and compare the pure audio of a real center and phantom center the character of the sound will be noticeably different. Screen-centered dialog coming from a single center speaker will seem more lifelike than from a phantom center.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Here is the current setup in my room. (Forgive the lack of decor--that just isn't my thing.)

And here is what Audyssey measured, with bass crossing the 0 line at ~82Hz:

The AVR's recommended crossover was 60Hz. IIRC, I liked it better at 90Hz, and going higher did not yield audibly better results in male voices.

My current crossover settings are 80, 90, 90, 90. Fronts were forced to small.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Here is the current setup in my room. (Forgive the lack of decor--that just isn't my thing.)

View attachment 175789

View attachment 175790

And here is what Audyssey measured, with bass crossing the 0 line at ~82Hz:

View attachment 175788

The AVR's recommended crossover was 60Hz. IIRC, I liked it better at 90Hz, and going higher did not yield audibly better results in male voices.

View attachment 175795

My current crossover settings are 80, 90, 90, 90. Fronts were forced to small.

I wonder what you would think if you took the center and set it on end on the floor leaning it back against the red entertainment center so the tweeter pretty much pointed at your face in your listening position. Can you give it a try and report back? Enquiring minds want to know. I know it will look different but if it gives you better sound and wider seating positions it would be interesting to know. In my opinion this stood on end seems like the best center channel I have seen on here in a long time. The hump Amir was EQing out was I think only 2db. In home theater that is nothing, you would never notice it. If this speaker went on sale in the back of a white van at Walmart for $399 it would be a steal.

 

[jhaider]

I then turn the speaker 90 degrees. The sides are flat and wide so speaker was quite stable this way. What I heard was mesmerizingly good! Spatial projection (halo around the speaker) enlarged and I was listening to truly high fidelity sounding speaker.

Do you still have Revel M16 (or for that matter this speaker) on hand? That seems to be as close a comparison as can be made of the relative sonic impact of vertical directivity differences between an MT and MTM: same design team, presumably same tweeter in what looks to be the waveguide geometric, presumably very similar woofer design. Bass capability (after EQ) should in theory even be broadly similar: C25 is bigger (right?) and has more drive unit surface area, but it doesn't have M16's vent to improve efficiency above vent resonance.

IMO vertical directivity is the biggest remaining Wild West element of loudspeaker design. Horizontal directivity I think is pretty well understood - smooth is the necessary condition, but pattern width depends on room and listener preference. But vertical dispersion smoothness varies quite a bit between well-designed speakers.

 

[temps]

The sweet spot is more of a problem, but I am the only one in the family who cares, so it is not a practical problem at my house.

I came to the same conclusion... after many years and thousands of dollars spent. Nobody except me gives a damn! So I just go all in making the sweet spot sound good, and any benefits to the other seats are just a nice bonus.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I came to the same conclusion... after many years and thousands of dollars spent. Nobody except me gives a damn! So I just go all in making the sweet spot sound good, and any benefits to the other seats are just a nice bonus.

Same here! Wife would be happy with a single (as in one only) very small Bluetooth speaker as her surround system. I cringe at the thought!

 

[testp]

i wonder if the tweeter waveguide would've been horizontally, maybe horizontal would've been better?

future testing tip: let's start re-arranging drivers as well in upcoming tests!

 

[sarumbear]

Even at Revel, marketing is the king.

 

[stevenswall]

Best centerspeaker design may be coaxial.. surround systems send all sub-100Hz to the sub/main speakers so closed center designs make sense to me. It is very interesting to see that Amir adds the ‘WA-TuneTot’ pseudo-bass bump at 115 Hz and it adds to the perceived quality of sound.

Not sure Revel knows coaxial drivers exist, and JBL refuses to put them in anything but their lowest end computer speakers.

Agreed though, the best design would be a coaxial. I want a center, but a Genelec 8351B is a bit too pricey right now.

I wish Devialet made a "dumb" version of their Phantoms they'd sell that just used XLR.

 

[Frgirard]

Granted, KEF has a 30 year head start developing coaxial drivers, but I'm pretty sure Kali Audio, a small manufacturer with something like 20 employees, developed their own rather decent coaxial drivers for their IN-line of studio monitors.
Revel Audio, the luxury brand of mighty Harman International Industries, must be capable of doing that as well.

Tannoy or Beyma