Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[abdo123]

Have you checked the cost of matching Perlisten subwoofers?

Have you checked the cost of the BXT unit for the Kii lmao.

 

[Massimo]

Have you checked the cost of the BXT unit for the Kii lmao.

Big dollars, although my interest is in the 8C (the topic of this thread) which incorporates a pair of 8" subwoofers in each enclosure providing full range capability from 20Hz-20kHz.

 

[hardisj]

Ummm. Y'all comparing cardioid to non-cardioid. Not apples to apples.

 

[hardisj]

FWIW, at $12k, I’d take the DD8c for stereo listening over the Perlisten + Amp + Sub. That’s based on what I’ve heard.

 

[abdo123]

FWIW, at $12k, I’d take the DD8c for stereo listening over the Perlisten + Amp + Sub. That’s based on what I’ve heard.

I thought the S4b had the best midrange you ever heard?

 

[hardisj]

I thought the S4b had the best midrange you ever heard?

As a package, the DD8c is a better speaker and I'd get it. Whether or not you'd agree is your call. It's your hypothetical money. You spend it how you want.

 

[abdo123]

As a package, the DD8c is a better speaker and I'd get it. Whether or not you'd agree is your call. It's your hypothetical money. You spend it how you want.

I was not trying to argue, your high opinion of S4b is one of the reasons why i think it’s the superior one of the three. So i’m genuinely shocked and curious to why you would pick the D&D out of the three. Is it the ease of mind?

 

[q3cpma]

I was not trying to argue, your high opinion of S4b is one of the reasons why i think it’s the superior one of the three. So i’m genuinely shocked and curious to why you would pick the D&D out of the three. Is it the ease of mind?

I'd wager way reduced SBIR and near wall reflections from Erin's written impressions. The whole "no need for subwoofers, amplifiers nor external DSP" thing may also be a factor.

 

[garbz]

What compromise would a S4b has for someone rich as long as it’s crossed with a subwoofer at 80Hz? It’s a flawless bookshelf speaker.

I'm going to go with the compromise that forces a person to buy a subwoofer.

I'm beginning to think you may not understand the meaning of the word.

 

[garbz]

Have you checked the cost of the BXT unit for the Kii lmao.

Yes but why would you buy it? The Kii doesn't compromise on bass response.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I'd wager way reduced SBIR and near wall reflections from Erin's written impressions. The whole "no need for subwoofers, amplifiers nor external DSP" thing may also be a factor.

Plus, as someone who's had an extensive D&D audition and had a 24 channel PRIR made of them, I can tell you they make very few, if any, compromises, especially in a normal sized listening room

 

[abdo123]

Yes but why would you buy it? The Kii doesn't compromise on bass response.

Is this a joke?

 

[fluid]

Yes but why would you buy it? The Kii doesn't compromise on bass response.

SPL at low frequencies is all about Volume displacement, cone area (Sd) x excursion (x-max) in the same units. When small woofers are equalised to produce a lower F3 maximum SPL Suffers. The solution to that is the BXT or other subwoofers. With the BXT having side woofers the range of cardioid response can be continued at a higher SPL.

If the SPL from the basic unit is enough there is no need to add more, if it isn't enough for certain professional situations or those who like it very loud then add more woofers. The 8c would be in a similar situation.

 

[garbz]

Is this a joke?

Only if you consider your ability to compare specs to be funny. Personally I don't. The fact you think an f3 of 28Hz is comparable and thus equally in need of a subwoofer compared to a speaker with an f3 of 78Hz is actually quite sad. I sincerely hope you're just trolling at this point.

SPL at low frequencies is all about Volume displacement, cone area (Sd) x excursion (x-max) in the same units. When small woofers are equalised to produce a lower F3 maximum SPL Suffers. The solution to that is the BXT or other subwoofers. With the BXT having side woofers the range of cardioid response can be continued at a higher SPL.

I know full well the limitations. I'm asking abdo123 why on earth he is thinking he's sane comparing a speaker which can't even play midbass properly to a speaker which for most scenarios has zero practical need for a subwoofer. Yes there's always the ability to do more. But some need it, while for others it's there as an optional extra.
For all intents and purposes few people will buy the BXT, on the flip side I imagine equally few people will use S4bs without a sub.

 

[Absolute]

Yes but why would you buy it? The Kii doesn't compromise on bass response.

I think this statement is a relative one. Looking at it from a narrow perspective (small speaker with limited potential for bass output), Kii doesn't compromise much on bass response. In a broader perspective the fact that the speaker is small is a huge compromise.

Personally I don't see the point in discussing everything in absolute terms, I like to keep it grounded and relative.

You want full-range speaker in a small box you have to pay for it by restricting spl levels. Dutch and Kii is both excellent examples of what can be done with active speakers and tons of power, but they're not full-range for mid/far-field in a largish room.
I had me some shits and giggles playing Infected Mushroom's Return to the Sauce at 95-100 dB average in a relatively large room both with and without BXT.

Not comparable.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have also made that comparison unless the room is extremely large and you have to sit a long way away from the speakers ( 5metres plus) and you are playing extremely loudly 95dB then the BXTs aren’t necessary imho of course.
Keith

 

[Absolute]

I have also made that comparison unless the room is extremely large and you have to sit a long way away from the speakers ( 5metres plus) and you are playing extremely loudly 95dB then the BXTs aren’t necessary imho of course.
Keith

We A-B tested alot by switching on and off BXT during lower levels as well on different material. At normal listening levels it's just a little bit softer without BXT in the midbass/upper bass area.

I remember thinking I could understand how someone would actually prefer without due to the softer sound, but personally I thought it was nice with that extra little bit of clarity and sting, likely as much to do with less floor bounce cancellation as added capacity.

At levels from 80 dB and up the difference gradually increases and at some point you reach the point of no comparison. The BXT will kick you hard in the chest in a way the Kii alone never could.

For me the BXT adds realism and fun-factor to the speakers. But yeah, unless you have the opportunity to let them sing, there's no point. Better spend that amount of money on getting a bigger place in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Is not the distortion data a bit dissapointing?

Now that I auditioned this speaker I question the reviews gushing about its engineering.
The point of the cardioid is defeated by noise. Crossing a tweeter over to an 8 inch driver is just poor engineering.
Once you turn it up to a decent level, this speaker sounds muddy. To keep the sound clean you have to be very close to it.

The Genelec 8361A is way way better sounding: crystal clear. 2 classes above it - and at lower price. I listened to both of them in the same (treated/dealer) room. Night and day. 8361A is impressive. The D&D is disappointing.

 

[hardisj]

You are literally the only person I have seen or know of to say that. Questioning my and others’ integrity seems like hyperbole. You had a bad experience. Doesn’t mean I lied or others did about their experience. The data sure isn’t lying. The most logical reason is something was wrong with your demo.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

You are literally the only person I have seen or know of to say that. Questioning my and others’ integrity seems like hyperbole. You had a bad experience. Doesn’t mean I lied or others did about their experience. The data sure isn’t lying. The most logical reason is something was wrong with your demo.

I will tone down my statements as strong language is questionable too.
The setup may have been at fault - possible.
However - as you say, data is there. The THD is less than stellar - to use mild language. Crossing a tweeter to 8 inch woofer can't be great sounding. What dynamics can one expect when the tweeter is taking over at 1250Hz?
Genelec Ones crosses the tweeter at 2800 if I remember correctly.
The lowest ME Geithain crosses their tweeter is 2200 Hz only when they use 3 of them. Otherwise they cross one tweeter at 2500. Etc, etc.
Physics don't add up for the D&D 8c.
The distortion at 96db is:
1khz => -40db or 1%
200 Hz => -30db or 3%
100 Hz => -20db or 10%
The data is not great.

Since I am the only one to say this I will stop saying anything negative about D&D 8c. It is indeed weird and I am not looking for attention.
Sorry if I offended you - not my intent. The language choice was poor and I corrected the original post.