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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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Leporello

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CDs did not arrive until the well into the 80s.

Maybe we need one of those earlier CD players, and get it tested for SINAD.
(If there are even any around.)

Before CDs there was only vinyl and cassette tape (if we discount 8 track).
That was my point, what is so difficult and BS laden of a topic as to the history when CDs arrived on the scene?

It had to have been like 83, 84 or 85 when the local “Licorice Pizza” store added CDs to the tape and vinyl.
I still have my Philips cd 104, launched in 1984, purchased in 1985, not in active use, though. Nothing wrong with the sound.

Particularly in the UK audiophile scene there was a lot of anti digital bs. Many hobbyists swallowed it hook line and sinker. Many of them try to justify this in hindsight by inventing stories about the faults of the early digital. They were just duped, that is all.
 

Blumlein 88

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Early reports on CD from J Gordon Holt and others were quite positive. The first place I recall seeing negative opinions was The Absolute Sound. It didn't take long for that to be the dogma at TAS and it seemed to spread from there. Early CDs in my experience sounded of a very similar balance to RTR tapes. LP sounds different. Most people didn't have RTR machines or tapes. LP was the reference.
 

Galliardist

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I had a Revox B225 CD player the very best of the 1st generation of players - 14 bit chips (yep not even 16bits) - but it sounded great - still sounded up with pretty much anything circa 2010, when I finally moved it on to a new home.... Built like a tank, quality throughout.

But in the meantime, I have moved on - all my CD's are ripped to my server, they are decoded by my AVR's DAC's, I have little use for a CD player any more.

In theory - if I had the time for it - I would do the same for my LP collection - it is a non-trivial exercise, and I have not settled on what would be an adequate an definitive archival method that would get the best from the vinyl records....

And yeah I still think the original early pressing (vinyl) of Brothers In Arms sounded better than any of the CD's (and I am sorry I traded it in the late 80's).
For the record (excuse pun): Brothers in Arms is a digital recording.
 

Snoopy

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It's always the same when something new arrives that makes old technology obsolete.

People that are invested in the technologie or the medium are going to deny the advantages of the new thing.

I just had a argument with someone yesterday about his 1080i plasma TV and he feels like there is not much available in 4k anyway and OLEDs are unnecessary and (Q)LED still can't compete with the quality of his plasma.
 
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dlaloum

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For the record (excuse pun): Brothers in Arms is a digital recording.
Yeah I know, but the way it was re-mastered onto vinyl, I preferred that early vinyl edition - they then re-mastered it again, and subsequent versions were more like the CD (sadly). - It isn't the vinyl that interested me, it was the fact that the way it was mastered made certain tracks sound better - particularly "Money for nothing".
 

Snoopy

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Yeah I know, but the way it was re-mastered onto vinyl, I preferred that early vinyl edition - they then re-mastered it again, and subsequent versions were more like the CD (sadly). - It isn't the vinyl that interested me, it was the fact that the way it was mastered made certain tracks sound better - particularly "Money for nothing".


They mastered it in a way so it sounds good on a medium that is the limiting factor. That's all. If you prefer that there is nothing wrong with it. Some people prefer BBC recordings that are brick walled.

But you might es well just start tube rolling and use r2r DACs if you like these imperfections.
 

Holmz

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They mastered it in a way so it sounds good on a medium that is the limiting factor. That's all. If you prefer that there is nothing wrong with it. Some people prefer BBC recordings that are brick walled.

But you might es well just start tube rolling and use r2r DACs if you like these imperfections.

We are back to the point of the content on the medium though.

(I believe that) He is not saying that he like the vinyl, he is saying that he like the mix that was put onto the vinyl, much in the same way that I like songs that I have on vinyl already, and some of those sound equally poorly engineered onto the CDs.

The engineering is way worse than than the pops and clicks, but the pops-n–clicks are no help.
When the recordings are great, then pops-n-clicks are more distressing.
But it is about the music.
 

Robin L

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We are back to the point of the content on the medium though.

(I believe that) He is not saying that he like the vinyl, he is saying that he like the mix that was put onto the vinyl, much in the same way that I like songs that I have on vinyl already, and some of those sound equally poorly engineered onto the CDs.

The engineering is way worse than than the pops and clicks, but the pops-n–clicks are no help.
When the recordings are great, then pops-n-clicks are more distressing.
But it is about the music.
You're still talking about "Brothers in Arms"? Because, as far as I can tell, the mix is pretty much set in stone, differences between the [digital] original and the LP version boil down to changes made to accommodate the limitations of the LP format.

By way of example, "Why Worry" is shorter on the LP version. There probably is less treble and bass on the LP because of cutting limitations. I've heard Brothers in Arms on multiple formats, including the SACD that I still have. Whatever the differences in mastering, if you want a different mix, you'll need the SACD: the different mix is the surround mix. I've got the early CD and a later redbook layer on the SACD. I don't recall a big enough difference as to pay attention. As for the difference between the LP and the Digital formats, it boils down to compromises made with mastering the LP because the LP cannot contain the dynamics or frequency extremes of the digital master. To these ears, the digital issues of Brothers in Arms are right, the LP is wrong. In other words, if you prefer the LP, you don't trust the producers of the original [digital] issues. You don't want the sound Mark Knopfler worked to get on his release. And you don't care if a couple of minutes of "Why Worry" are cut off.
 

Digby

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This a long thread, not read it all, but this is a thought I had. I wonder if the (mainly euphonic) distortion makes vinyl sound louder when compared to a CD. This could be a good thing, seeing as most people have a penchant for small speakers that struggle to get particularly loud without sounding like they are falling apart; with vinyl, you get the illusion of volume without the nasty effects of driving a speaker too loud with a cleaner, digital signal.

Perhaps it is a case of the lesser of two evils with small speakers being the limiting factor?
 
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billyjoebob

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But you might es well just start tube rolling and use r2r DACs if you like these imperfections.
So what exactly is wrong with a tube amp and a r2r dac? That in your 1st paragraph you state that if he likes vinyl, there is nothing wrong it,
To following it up with this useless attempt at an insult?
 

krabapple

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You are sort of ignoring history though…
We can have a debate about vinyl versus LP, and yeah… CD quality now is better.
Up to the early 90s, or maybe later, vinyl was better.

Hmm, no, it wasn't.

Audiophile mythology != reality.
 

Holmz

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You're still talking about "Brothers in Arms"? Because, as far as I can tell, the mix is pretty much set in stone, differences between the [digital] original and the LP version boil down to changes made to accommodate the limitations of the LP format.

By way of example, "Why Worry" is shorter on the LP version. There probably is less treble and bass on the LP because of cutting limitations. I've heard Brothers in Arms on multiple formats, including the SACD that I still have. Whatever the differences in mastering, if you want a different mix, you'll need the SACD: the different mix is the surround mix. I've got the early CD and a later redbook layer on the SACD. I don't recall a big enough difference as to pay attention. As for the difference between the LP and the Digital formats, it boils down to compromises made with mastering the LP because the LP cannot contain the dynamics or frequency extremes of the digital master. To these ears, the digital issues of Brothers in Arms are right, the LP is wrong. In other words, if you prefer the LP, you don't trust the producers of the original [digital] issues. You don't want the sound Mark Knopfler worked to get on his release. And you don't care if a couple of minutes of "Why Worry" are cut off.

Let me try again…
The musicians we are talking about in this album are top shelf, the sales revenue is high, that afforded great engineering, or maybe the great engineering pushed the sales up.
It is not an embarssment to listen to it on vinyl, or on CD.

It is more of an embarrassing situation to genuinely like music that was poorly recorded, where the musicians were good and had something to say, but the recording process was flawed or second rate.

Secondly:
... You don't want the sound Mark Knopfler worked to get on his release. And you don't care if a couple of minutes of "Why Worry" are cut off.

This thread genreally talks about ”what the artist intended” like they have a say in things.
In this case you have a valid point, and they probably did.
(And also phrases like symbiotic relationship.)

However in a lot of lesser successful bands, I suspect that the musicians were more this farming, where recording engineering, marketing and sales were like a factory or farm production line.

Basically we can take what they offer or not.
And we can talk it on vinyl, then later on CD, then later on SACD.

The reason vinyl exists is because it was part of the evolution from wax cylinders.

I generally detest comparisons of electronics or speakers with cars… but:
It is much the same as how an electric car may be better than internal combustion, but after ~1900 (or maybe a bit earlier), the choice was only ICE for ~80 years.
And we can talk about the romance of the sound of the engines, including the induction sounds, etc.
Technically I suspect that a Tesla beats an Aston Martin DB2 or a Porsche 356 or 911, (Lancia, Ferrari, etc) in most performance tests. But in the 50 through 80s, there was no option for a Tesla.
And the pageantry and ritual of pulling those old car out of garage for drive seems to brings pleasure to the owners.

It is similar to high end vinyl set up, where we have a sighted expectation that it is going to sound different, and sound good.
The psychology is probably why some people think that they sound better.

Hmm, no, it wasn't.

Audiophile mythology != reality.

Please keep up Sir.
We addressed that back in post 1189, it was in the 83-85 range when the CDs arrived.
(Technically Oct 1982, and realistically there was a lag.)

CDs and digital could not superior to vinyl when they did not yesterday exist in the market…
We had one choice`.
 

dlaloum

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They mastered it in a way so it sounds good on a medium that is the limiting factor. That's all. If you prefer that there is nothing wrong with it. Some people prefer BBC recordings that are brick walled. But you might es well just start tube rolling and use r2r DACs if you like these imperfections.

On Vinyl, they mastered it in two different ways - the early first release version - which sounds different from the CD, and the later pressings version, which sounds the same as the CD. It is not a "medium" limiting factor, as the later pressings were on the same vinyl medium - it was a mastering decision at some point, by either the artists and/or the mastering engineer, and one not related to the medium.
 

krabapple

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You want to come do that? Clean each one, capture it at 96/24 (for processing later down to 48/16?). (Yes, I keep the ultrasonics, it allows an analysis of mine to figure out when mistracking happened, and lets some mitigation happen).

You got the time? I've got the beer!

along the lines of Plangent processing?
 

krabapple

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You got to be super careful when buying those German pressings. Most out there are cut from one of the worse of the worse 1995-1996 remasters with a squashed 12 DR like this,
I'm sure the one you linked is fine, as are the US pressings of the 1985 master I gave the UPC for.
The DR file I posted was measured from my personal very early Warner pressing, one of, if not THE very first CD I ever owned. ;)

A DR of 12 means 'squashed'?? :rolleyes:

No. Let's be reasonable.
 

Blumlein 88

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On Vinyl, they mastered it in two different ways - the early first release version - which sounds different from the CD, and the later pressings version, which sounds the same as the CD. It is not a "medium" limiting factor, as the later pressings were on the same vinyl medium - it was a mastering decision at some point, by either the artists and/or the mastering engineer, and one not related to the medium.
I don't think what you describe is possible. Early CD sounded like the pre-recorded reels as you could use the same mastering. LP's in some ways cannot use that master. Even beyond the needed RIAA EQ, you have loss of frequency response and increasing distortion in the inner grooves. You have to curtail and mono the bass for LP. No doubt later CD re-issues have different mastering (unfortunately often more compressed). I suppose one could use an LP mastering minus RIAA EQ. I don't know anyone doing that, but it is possible.
 

dlaloum

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I don't think what you describe is possible. Early CD sounded like the pre-recorded reels as you could use the same mastering. LP's in some ways cannot use that master. Even beyond the needed RIAA EQ, you have loss of frequency response and increasing distortion in the inner grooves. You have to curtail and mono the bass for LP. No doubt later CD re-issues have different mastering (unfortunately often more compressed). I suppose one could use an LP mastering minus RIAA EQ. I don't know anyone doing that, but it is possible.
Actually, you are right, I recall the early CD's sounding the same as the early LP - and later versions of both were different - either way, not related to the media
 
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