Are you a Subjectivist or an Objectivist?

[BoredErica]

We don't have objectivists popping up randomly in Headfi headphone review threads talking about how the soundstage is wider than the Nile river is. We do get random subjectivists pop in and talk about how the measurements don't matter and start talking about some impossible difference they heard. 99% of the time those people didn't bother to understand what they're criticizing.

Keep in mind this forum was founded to backlash from what subjectivists claim. I'm here and not in the other forums for good reasons. So I find it unfair to come in here and go against ASR-type view of audio in a place built on backlash against subjectivist thinking and get surprised/annoyed when objectivists talk about subjectivists.

Which isn't to say subjectivists can or can't do anything. But rather, subjectivists behave no differently than objectivists here in that they both want to show their view of things is right. Subjectivists get no moral high ground here. Also I hardly find a deep semantic debate about what subjectivist or objectivist mean and how to categorize people by their belief or decision making systems to be dirty worthless gossip.

"And then came the user testing. The team invited players from different backgrounds and with varying abilities to test prototypes and pre-production units. There are very few products people hold steadily for hours at a time, so the team wanted to know which prototypes felt comfortable for an extended period and how the new design impacted performance. “We wanted to know things like how fingers slid on certain areas and how the matte finish felt with their grips,” Erika explains."

Somebody once paternalistically told me, 'don't trust everything you read online'.

Perhaps it irritates others and drives them away? ITs not interesting? I don't see other places talking about here (only once in a blue moon). Vast majority are just going about their own activities. There many be references to other forums but its more about certain tests etc, not about commenting on other forums.

Ever heard of a very not best or nice place called Super Best Audio Friends?

 

[SIY]

This is a very good example that subjective testing is extremely important and there is no objective test that can determine which is better/worse.

This is a perfect example of the fuzzy thinking that occurs when we misuse terms, as well as bizarrely inapt analogizing as an excuse for evading basic controls in audio. I cut my perceptual research teeth on game controller and computer pointing device design (including several generations of Xbox controllers), and there are a TON of objective measures of performance, and large amounts of controlled testing to validate design hypotheses vis a vis basic performance.

This is a separate question from hedonic testing which has different types of controls (but very much has quantitative controls) in order to achieve other aspects of design goals, but you managed to conflate that as well.

 

[BoredErica]

If you listen to two speakers, you might think A is better. But when I don't let you see what you're listening to, you end up saying you prefer B. Can we at least agree that sonically you actually prefer B, and you only said A due to psychological biases? And that blind testing is far better than sighted if you can manage it? This basic truth to me is bulletproof and my mind cannot comprehend how anyone could actually disagree with this.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you listen to two speakers, you might think A is better. But when I don't let you see what you're listening to, you end up saying you prefer B. Can we at least agree that sonically you actually prefer B, and you only said A due to psychological biases? And that blind testing is far better than sighted if you can manage it? This basic truth to me is bulletproof and my mind cannot comprehend how anyone could actually disagree with this.

I agree except, when you once again listen sighted you probably will again prefer the "wrong" speaker. And in real life you own and listen sighted.

 

[Killingbeans]

Perhaps it irritates others and drives them away? ITs not interesting?

Perhaps. Sometimes when I see another "Get ya pitchfork!" -thread, I catch myself participating. Other times I just shake my head/sigh and think "Here we go again". But honestly, nobody is forcing people to read those threads. There's plenty of other threads to dive into.

It's just people venting frustration. If that's enough to make a forum unbearable to a person, I really can't think of anyting other than to tell him/her to grow a pair.

I don't see other places talking about here (only once in a blue moon). Vast majority are just going about their own activities. There many be references to other forums but its more about certain tests etc, not about commenting on other forums.

That's why I like ASR. I'll take a forum that questions the state of things over one that tries to keep status quo, any day of the week. And no, I don't want things to become paranoid/political, but real effective curiosity requires a few eggs to be broken.

 

[BDWoody]

If you listen to two speakers, you might think A is better. But when I don't let you see what you're listening to, you end up saying you prefer B. Can we at least agree that sonically you actually prefer B, and you only said A due to psychological biases?

Yes, I'd agree with that. If it were me, at least now I can be aware of that when I decide which to buy. I may still choose the less preferred one for lots of reasons...

Maybe the ones I slightly prefer are my current butt ugly JBL's, and the 'losers' are some beautiful hand made pieces of furniture. It wouldn't be irrational to choose either, but it is now at least an informed choice.

 

[ahofer]

I don't see other places talking about here (only once in a blue moon). Vast majority are just going about their own activities.

Audiogon denizens do it it all the time, even accusing ASR of provoking suicide.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I think a lot of people do not understand how to use ASR in purchasing decisions. Also, they get confused by the two camps that operate daily in ASR. First the two camps. We have the regular people looking for information on equipment and possibly looking to buy something. The other camp is the engineers and manufacturers that are here discussing things that do not matter to the consumer. For example, using a specific chip in a piece of gear. The consumer can only get whatever the product manufacturer puts in the product, but our engineers may have a long 30 page discussion on the actual pieces and parts in the unit. A lot of people read the engineers posts/threads and get sideways as they really do not understand what is being talked about and how or if it affects the sound. Leaving our engineering side to itself as they do fine talking to each other and even arguing between each other, lets look at Mr. Consumer.

ASR for the consumer is a great place to check to make sure what you are paying for is not junk. The manufacturers can claim all they want on the box and in ads, but Amir will test the gear and give you the results. Are the tests perfect in every way? No. Do they answer every question that a consumer may have? No. What it does do is give you comparisons to other gear and you can decide what you want to buy or try based on say a top 25% performance ranking. Of course, once you try something, you can then decide if you like it. But, you are not buying blind and most likely being lied to by the manufacturer. Snake oil runs the Audio industry. Amir tries very hard to cut through the snake oil and give you at least a basic view of the items real performance. So, the consumer CAN'T come here and pick the highest ranked item and think they have the best there is. They may not like how it sounds. But it gets them from zero knowledge on the item to 75 to 80% of the way to making an informed decision. Compared to having no scientific evidence to back up product claims, Amir's information is a godsend to the audio community. He does a buttload of work to help steer you away from fraudulent, poorly engineered, overpriced and sometimes junk equipment. A service that is provided for free! It does not get any better than that.

So, if the newbie on ASR accidently gets into the engineering discussions they will quickly be pounced on for incorrect information etc. But if they stay in the review/product discussions they will come away learning a lot and getting help NEVER BEFORE provided to the audio community. I wish there was a sticky post that described these two camps for new members so they would understand ASR. It can be very confusing for a newbie if not downright aggravating. But that is up to Amir to do.

So, ASR is objective in practice and testing but "subjective" in you buying what you like based on a science foundation. There, easy as can be right?

 

[markus]

I agree except, when you once again listen sighted you probably will again prefer the "wrong" speaker. And in real life you own and listen sighted.

Placebo is real. Now the question becomes for how many people does that specific placebo work? Just you? Some? A large number? The majority? Does it work all the time? Is it predictable?

The Placebo Effect Is Real, and Scientists May Be Able To Predict Who Responds

It may have to do with your personality

time.com

 

[ahofer]

What it does do is give you comparisons to other gear and you can decide what you want to buy or try based on say a top 25% performance ranking. Of course, once you try something, you can then decide if you like it. But, you are not buying blind and most likely being lied to by the manufacturer. Snake oil runs the Audio industry. Amir tries very hard to cut through the snake oil and give you at least a basic view of the items real performance. So, the consumer CAN'T come here and pick the highest ranked item and think they have the best there is. They may not like how it sounds. But it gets them from zero knowledge on the item to 75 to 80% of the way to making an informed decision. Compared to having no scientific evidence to back up product claims, Amir's information is a godsend to the audio community. He does a buttload of work to help steer you away from fraudulent, poorly engineered, overpriced and sometimes junk equipment. A service that is provided for free! It does not get any better than that.

I agree with this. One quibble I have is that it is far from necessary to have, for instance, a top 25% DAC, only to avoid the intentionally broken ones. The best DAC is so often the one you already have, if the features work for you. For amps this is also mostly true.

This information is all over ASR, but not really implied in the rankings.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I agree with this. One quibble I have is that it is far from necessary to have, for instance, a top 25% DAC, only to avoid the intentionally broken ones. The best DAC is so often the one you already have, if the features work for you. For amps this is also mostly true.

This information is all over ASR, but not really implied in the rankings.

I agree. I was just giving an example for a consumer that they could use. I could have even said top 40%. But it gets the consumer in the ballpark, instead of wandering in the parking lot looking for the ballpark!

 

[MattHooper]

We don't have objectivists popping up randomly in Headfi headphone review threads talking about how the soundstage is wider than the Nile river is. We do get random subjectivists pop in and talk about how the measurements don't matter and start talking about some impossible difference they heard. 99% of the time those people didn't bother to understand what they're criticizing.

Keep in mind this forum was founded to backlash from what subjectivists claim. I'm here and not in the other forums for good reasons. So I find it unfair to come in here and go against ASR-type view of audio in a place built on backlash against subjectivist thinking and get surprised/annoyed when objectivists talk about subjectivists.

Which isn't to say subjectivists can or can't do anything. But rather, subjectivists behave no differently than objectivists here in that they both want to show their view of things is right. Subjectivists get no moral high ground here. Also I hardly find a deep semantic debate about what subjectivist or objectivist mean and how to categorize people by their belief or decision making systems to be dirty worthless gossip.

(Emphasis mine)

I find that fairly strange.

On one hand you continually used "Subjectivist" and "Objectivist," even pointing out this forum is essentially a reaction against the "subjectivist" camp in audio.

And then say that if we should actually try to discuss or clarify what we MEAN by the terms you are using, doing so is "dirty worthless gossip?"

Can you clarify your point, as it seems to me at this point kind of incoherent. Thanks.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

We don't have objectivists popping up randomly in Headfi headphone review threads talking about how the soundstage is wider than the Nile river is. We do get random subjectivists pop in and talk about how the measurements don't matter and start talking about some impossible difference they heard. 99% of the time those people didn't bother to understand what they're criticizing.

Keep in mind this forum was founded to backlash from what subjectivists claim. I'm here and not in the other forums for good reasons. So I find it unfair to come in here and go against ASR-type view of audio in a place built on backlash against subjectivist thinking and get surprised/annoyed when objectivists talk about subjectivists.

Which isn't to say subjectivists can or can't do anything. But rather, subjectivists behave no differently than objectivists here in that they both want to show their view of things is right. Subjectivists get no moral high ground here. Also I hardly find a deep semantic debate about what subjectivist or objectivist mean and how to categorize people by their belief or decision making systems to be dirty worthless gossip.

Somebody once paternalistically told me, 'don't trust everything you read online'.


Ever heard of a very not best or nice place called Super Best Audio Friends?

Why do you seem to feel so threatened? Never heard the ones of us who are labelled ‘Subjective’ stating objective measurements are of no use. As others have said on this thread we see them as a useful starting point, if not ‘the be all and end all.’ Some posts have mentioned how much seeing a piece of equipment affects our purchases? In my case must say seeing does influence my judgement. Shortage of space rules out large floor standing speakers regardless of measurements or sound.

 

[gsp1971]

I think a lot of people do not understand how to use ASR in purchasing decisions. Also, they get confused by the two camps that operate daily in ASR. First the two camps. We have the regular people looking for information on equipment and possibly looking to buy something. The other camp is the engineers and manufacturers that are here discussing things that do not matter to the consumer. For example, using a specific chip in a piece of gear. The consumer can only get whatever the product manufacturer puts in the product, but our engineers may have a long 30 page discussion on the actual pieces and parts in the unit. A lot of people read the engineers posts/threads and get sideways as they really do not understand what is being talked about and how or if it affects the sound. Leaving our engineering side to itself as they do fine talking to each other and even arguing between each other, lets look at Mr. Consumer.

ASR for the consumer is a great place to check to make sure what you are paying for is not junk. The manufacturers can claim all they want on the box and in ads, but Amir will test the gear and give you the results. Are the tests perfect in every way? No. Do they answer every question that a consumer may have? No. What it does do is give you comparisons to other gear and you can decide what you want to buy or try based on say a top 25% performance ranking. Of course, once you try something, you can then decide if you like it. But, you are not buying blind and most likely being lied to by the manufacturer. Snake oil runs the Audio industry. Amir tries very hard to cut through the snake oil and give you at least a basic view of the items real performance. So, the consumer CAN'T come here and pick the highest ranked item and think they have the best there is. They may not like how it sounds. But it gets them from zero knowledge on the item to 75 to 80% of the way to making an informed decision. Compared to having no scientific evidence to back up product claims, Amir's information is a godsend to the audio community. He does a buttload of work to help steer you away from fraudulent, poorly engineered, overpriced and sometimes junk equipment. A service that is provided for free! It does not get any better than that.

So, if the newbie on ASR accidently gets into the engineering discussions they will quickly be pounced on for incorrect information etc. But if they stay in the review/product discussions they will come away learning a lot and getting help NEVER BEFORE provided to the audio community. I wish there was a sticky post that described these two camps for new members so they would understand ASR. It can be very confusing for a newbie if not downright aggravating. But that is up to Amir to do.

So, ASR is objective in practice and testing but "subjective" in you buying what you like based on a science foundation. There, easy as can be right?

Well said.
I will only add one more thing.
For years we have been led to believe that in order to get better quality audio,
(a) you have to keep climbing the price ladder, and
(b) hi-fi components must be in a similar price range (e.g. the speakers, amp & source must all be in the $2,500 - $5,000 region).

ASR helps consumers (at least it has helped me) understand that performance does not necessarily have to come via climbing up to the next price bracket.

With excellent DAC offerings from Octo, Topping, Gustard, and SMSL all under $1,000, why would someone ever want to spend more? Only if you want more facilities / inputs but that is not performance related.

Similarly, with excellent amps based on Hypex and Purifi modules, why spend silly money on mega-buck amps?

You can save money with the above and spend it on better speakers and room treatment.

This is the value of ASR for me.

 

[Newman]

I agree except, when you once again listen sighted you probably will again prefer the "wrong" speaker. And in real life you own and listen sighted.

…and that’s why I regularly advise not to discount our sighted impressions when deciding on our own gear. Just don’t kid ourselves it is all in the sound waves, even though it seems that way, and don’t give other audiophiles the impression what we ‘heard’ was in the sound waves. Even a ‘heard’ preference for obviously-different-sounding speakers can be the opposite of what we would prefer based only on the sound waves. (Ref: Toole)

Regarding your first sentence above, it would be nice if there has been any research on this, ie how often do we revert to a preference for the ‘wrong’ speaker. Or, once we learn and accept that all well-engineered cables that are being used for their intended purpose will sound the same, how often do we still ‘hear’ them as different, succumbing to contextual data like price or reputation.

cheers

 

[ahofer]

hi-fi components must be in a similar price range (e.g. the speakers, amp & source must all be in the $2,500 - $5,000 region).

Thanks, Stereophile (Class B)

On several other sites, I've described my system, and people say I have underspent on electronics relative to my speakers. I take it as a complement, although it is not intended as such. On the Harbeth Facebook site, they seem to think your amp should cost 2-3X your speakers or you aren't getting the best out of them. The (AMP+DAC)/speakers ratio seems to correlate with how tightly the circle of confusion is strangling the community.

 

[ahofer]

Regarding your first sentence above, it would be nice if there has been any research on this, ie how often do we revert to a preference for the ‘wrong’ speaker. Or, once we learn and accept that all well-engineered cables that are being used for their intended purpose will sound the same, how often do we still ‘hear’ them as different, succumbing to contextual data like price or reputation.

I agree with that - how stable are the subjective impressions from sighted/confirmation/etc. bias? I must say, when you see the upgrade-itis and the "bad stereo day" on Audiogon (apparently it's always the equipment, not the listener) I get the impression that they are NOT very stable, and follow a diminishing trend overall.

 

[tuga]

…and that’s why I regularly advise not to discount our sighted impressions when deciding on our own gear. Just don’t kid ourselves it is all in the sound waves, even though it seems that way, and don’t give other audiophiles the impression what we ‘heard’ was in the sound waves. Even a ‘heard’ preference for obviously-different-sounding speakers can be the opposite of what we would prefer based only on the sound waves. (Ref: Toole)

Regarding your first sentence above, it would be nice if there has been any research on this, ie how often do we revert to a preference for the ‘wrong’ speaker. Or, once we learn and accept that all well-engineered cables that are being used for their intended purpose will sound the same, how often do we still ‘hear’ them as different, succumbing to contextual data like price or reputation.

Looks, price, brand name and history will also come into play for many audiophiles when it comes to preference.
Rationality may be the right way for some but it is not the panacea...

I don't see why others should/must "learn and accept", even if that is the path I, myself, prefer to trail.

 

[gsp1971]

Thanks, Stereophile (Class B)

On several other sites, I've described my system, and people say I have underspent on electronics relative to my speakers. I take it as a complement, although it is not intended as such. On the Harbeth Facebook site, they seem to think your amp should cost 2-3X your speakers or you aren't getting the best out of them. The (AMP+DAC)/speakers ratio seems to correlate with how tightly the circle of confusion is strangling the community.

Oh, I know, there is a 40-40-20 rule as well:

• 40% of your budget on speakers
• 40% on amplification
• 20% on the source

Elsewhere, this has evolved into the the 50-30-20 rule. On some sites they say that systems < 5K are 'hi-fi' and that you need to spend over 5K to achieve 'hi-end'. No wonder consumers are disillusioned and confused.

 

[ahofer]

On some sites they say that systems < 5K are 'hi-fi'

"mid-fi": a term for mid-wits.