SMSL M500 DAC and HP Amp Review

[Palex]

Connection question - How to connect an iOS device to the SMSL M500 DAC?

 

[jani80k]

get a lightning to USB adapter

 

[SMSL-Mandy]

Connection question - How to connect an iOS device to the SMSL M500 DAC?

 

[Palex]

Thanks

 

[svengun]

I recently bought a Denon DNP-800NE (network streamer) , which uses a Burr Brown PCM1795 DAC chip. I was recently on holiday and read up on that chip and most what I read was, that the Sabre ES9038PRO , is more recent and a lot better. The Denon supports an external DAC via Toslink (optical)

So, I'm considering to buy the SMSL M500 , but only if it will have an audible improvement. I know audible is up to anyone's own perception , but I'm open to educated guesses / opinions

I read on this thread (posted by a user) that streamers like Denon, Yamaha (etc) usually use 'good enough' DAC's ,so this , plus my research on the DAC chip in the Denon , made me think of going this way

The link would be NAS (DNLA) > Denon streamer > SMSL DAC > Cayden Tube Amp (CS-88A) > Klipsch RP6000f tower speakers

Many thanks in advance, for any advice !

 

[NorthGraves]

So, I'm considering to buy the SMSL M500 , but only if it will have an audible improvement

Buy where you can return.

1) An audible improvement or not will depend a lot on who you ask

2) It'll depend on the audio path including the source as well

3) I would be skeptic about ES9038PRO sounding A LOT better than PCM1795 (and I have an M500 and a couple of Burr-Brown based DACs)

4) To play native DSD 128/256, I think you need a USB streamer, like Zen Audio Stream, I don't think you can stream native DSD over Optical/Coaxial outputs on your Denon

5) There are other considerations, like M500 having balanced outputs + able to decode MQA etc.

 

[svengun]

Buy where you can return.

1) An audible improvement or not will depend a lot on who you ask

2) It'll depend on the audio path including the source as well

3) I would be skeptic about ES9038PRO sounding A LOT better than PCM1795 (and I have an M500 and a couple of Burr-Brown based DACs)

4) To play native DSD 128/256, I think you need a USB streamer, like Zen Audio Stream, I don't think you can stream native DSD over Optical/Coaxial outputs on your Denon

5) There are other considerations, like M500 having balanced outputs + able to decode MQA etc.

Thanks ! considering that you own devices with these DAC chips, I'm gonna go with your advice (DSD playback, MQA en XLR's are not important to me, at the moment)

I need to chill with my audio upgraderitus , already spend 2500+ euro's in a month's time on improving my audio, which wasn't planned at all and I'm not a rich guy ;-)

the Denon streamer + (and because of) the tube amp , already heavily improved my audio quality, with new, unheard details and smoothness (it formerly was PC with 100$ soundcard to Marantz SR6010 > Klipsch RP6000F's)

 

[Laserjock]

Thanks

Get the one with lightning power input option. Apple Lightning to USB3 Camera Adapter

Apple Lightning to USB3 Camera Adapter

Buy Apple Lightning to USB3 Camera Adapter at Amazon. Customer reviews and photos may be available to help you make the right purchase decision!

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The other may work for some but mine required power when I tried it.

Buy once

 

[Killingbeans]

So, I'm considering to buy the SMSL M500 , but only if it will have an audible improvement. I know audible is up to anyone's own perception , but I'm open to educated guesses / opinions

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Personally I wouldn't feel the need for an external DAC. The likelihood of an audible difference is very low (to put it mildly).

[prejudice] The tube amp and the Klipsch speakers are probaly also "colorful" enough to dwarf anything of importance [/prejudice]

 

[svengun]

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Personally I wouldn't feel the need for an external DAC. The likelihood of an audible difference is very low (to put it mildly).

[prejudice] The tube amp and the Klipsch speakers are probaly also "colorful" enough to dwarf anything of importance [/prejudice]

So a ' much' better SINAD (e.g. 90db to 120db) will probably not be noticeable, because of the colorization ?

If so, OK, Thanks !

 

[Killingbeans]

So a ' much' better SINAD (e.g. 90db to 120db) will probably not be noticeable, because of the colorization ?

Well, the types of distortion you get from speakers are different from what a DAC would display, so they probably woudn't mask it directly. The tube amp is a different question. Depends on whether it's designed to have "tube sound" or not.

But still, hearing differences at -120dB requires specialized testing under optimal listening conditions (probably headphones) and with lots of prior training.

With a normal speaker setup in a normal room, the point of complete insignificance is most likely reached at -60dB (that might even be a generous guess). Especially when the music's playing.

If you ask an engineer, audio DACs was a solved problem pretty much at the get-go. There are truly terrible implementations out there, but then we're talking $2 converter boxes from AliExpress, or "boutique" DACs that are deliberately mangled with audiophile phobia/anxiety in mind.

Sometimes you'll come across a guy who'll explain to you that he is deeply bothered by stuff at -300dB, but then he just happens to have a multi $1000 box that can make it all go away

 

[svengun]

It's my 1st Tube Amp , I believe it is designed to be more neutral. Quote from a review: This Cayin is lush, natural, vibrant and alive in midrange warmth. It is not a dull amp at all and the sound is very timbre correct and natural. The CS-88A Mk2 features smooth and extended highs - sparkling clarity, yet without that ear surgery "bite". There is a balanced midrange

I do know that the Klipsch are not neutral & Amirm really dislikes them ;-) (I also have the RP-160M , which got an awfully negative review here. My Setup was Home Cinema first, but now I have separated it via an AMP+Speaker switch) Sorry , went a bit off-topic, but the Klipsch review always bothered me , read it shortly after my purchases

 

[Killingbeans]

It's my 1st Tube Amp , I believe it is designed to be more neutral. Quote from a review: This Cayin is lush, natural, vibrant and alive in midrange warmth. It is not a dull amp at all and the sound is very timbre correct and natural. The CS-88A Mk2 features smooth and extended highs - sparkling clarity, yet without that ear surgery "bite". There is a balanced midrange

Perfect example of why I don't put much value on reviews. This one seems to contradict itself 4 or 5 times

The product page says: THD 1%(1kHz), but doesn't specify the power level.

Doesn't smell like an attempt at designing a neutral amp to me. Not that it matters much, as long as you enjoy it.

 

[NorthGraves]

FYI, got an iFi Zen Stream today (for 90% Tidal/10% Internet Radio) and seems to work fine with M500.
Displaying MQA on M500 when playing Master tracks.

In case you are considering.

 

[MalinYamato]

FYI, got an iFi Zen Stream today (for 90% Tidal/10% Internet Radio) and seems to work fine with M500.
Displaying MQA on M500 when playing Master tracks.

In case you are considering.

thats the way to go. also I go for Zen, I run Volumio3 on a NUC that feeds into M500, that feeds a Zen Can V2 and I enjoy Tidal MQA that way. The thing with M500, since the display is large everyone around me and at a distance knows that I listen to MQA stuff and what gets out from my headphones is no crap. Some complain about MQA as being lossy, but to me it sounds great and for everyone else there is no audible difference between listen to MQA and a non lossy FLAC that encodes the original master, not at all.

 

[reddeath]

Hello All,
I have a SMSL M500 (V2, SW: 1.6, HW: 1.3) for nearly 1 year now.

Just recently, when placebo effect has worn out, I have realized that the built-in headphone AMP produces much thinner bass frequency for a given song than my other amps I have at home. Song tested, among many others, is: Bassotronics - Bass, I Love You.

All the below combinations produce a nice filling bass at the same subjective volume levels, as opposed to SMSL M500 headphone out:
- Logitech Z-2300 headphone out. Sound path: PC USB (Tidal master or foobar) => SMSL M500 RCA out => Logitech Z-2300 headphone out
- Denon AVR-X4500H. Sound path: nVidia Shield TV HDMI (Tidal master or Kodi) => Denon AVR-X4500H headphone out in Direct mode
- Zen Dac V1. Sound path: PC USB (Tidal master) => Zen Dac headhone out (no bass boost)

Headphones tested (all around 50 ohm):
- Bose QC 35 II
- Sennheiser HD 599
- Sennheiser HD 558

SMSL M500 volume levels:
- Headphone out: 10-12. Increasing to 20 does not give more base, and it is too loud.
- RCA out: 20

So far I have not heard a single review mentioning this issue - lack of bass where (presumably) there should be a nice oomph.

Can anyone confirm or deny that their M500 has similar issue, based on comparison with other headphone amps?

 

[MediumRare]

Hello All,
I have a SMSL M500 (V2, SW: 1.6, HW: 1.3) for nearly 1 year now.

Just recently, when placebo effect has worn out, I have realized that the built-in headphone AMP produces much thinner bass frequency for a given song than my other amps I have at home. Song tested, among many others, is: Bassotronics - Bass, I Love You.

All the below combinations produce a nice filling bass at the same subjective volume levels, as opposed to SMSL M500 headphone out:
- Logitech Z-2300 headphone out. Sound path: PC USB (Tidal master or foobar) => SMSL M500 RCA out => Logitech Z-2300 headphone out
- Denon AVR-X4500H. Sound path: nVidia Shield TV HDMI (Tidal master or Kodi) => Denon AVR-X4500H headphone out in Direct mode
- Zen Dac V1. Sound path: PC USB (Tidal master) => Zen Dac headhone out (no bass boost)

Headphones tested (all around 50 ohm):
- Bose QC 35 II
- Sennheiser HD 599
- Sennheiser HD 558

SMSL M500 volume levels:
- Headphone out: 10-12. Increasing to 20 does not give more base, and it is too loud.
- RCA out: 20

So far I have not heard a single review mentioning this issue - lack of bass where (presumably) there should be a nice oomph.

Can anyone confirm or deny that their M500 has similar issue, based on comparison with other headphone amps?

Since it's extremely unlikely those other amps have as much power or low distortion as the SMSL, perhaps you are enjoying the increase mid-bass from harmonic distortion those other amps likely produce? I can't tell you to prefer cleaner bass over "more"/dirty bass, but that does seem to be the likely situation, IMO.

 

[reddeath]

Since it's extremely unlikely those other amps have as much power or low distortion as the SMSL, perhaps you are enjoying the increase mid-bass from harmonic distortion those other amps likely produce? I can't tell you to prefer cleaner bass over "more"/dirty bass, but that does seem to be the likely situation, IMO.

I should reformulate my statement to avoid misinterpretations and ensure that potential replies of M500 owners benefit the readers of the forum, including myself:

My observation is that M500 lacks loudness in the low frequency, where there should be much more present. it is just very thin. I don't hear any distortion on the other apms I listed that I used to listen to the same songs.

I posted the same question on the M500 owner's thread on this forum, but there has been no replies there so far. Should I assume that many people on this thread are not owners of M500 and just post here for fun?

 

[MediumRare]

I should reformulate my statement to avoid misinterpretations and ensure that potential replies of M500 owners benefit the readers of the forum, including myself:

My observation is that M500 lacks loudness in the low frequency, where there should be much more present. it is just very thin. I don't hear any distortion on the other apms I listed that I used to listen to the same songs.

I posted the same question on the M500 owner's thread on this forum, but there has been no replies there so far. Should I assume that many people on this thread are not owners of M500 and just post here for fun?

If there were distortion, you wouldn't hear a buzz, you would hear additional frequencies that are perceived as a thickening of the sound. E.g. 40 hz as +80 hz, +120 hz, etc. It would only sound like a little more bass.

 

[reddeath]

If there were distortion, you wouldn't hear a buzz, you would hear additional frequencies that are perceived as a thickening of the sound. E.g. 40 hz as +80 hz, +120 hz, etc. It would only sound like a little more bass.

I will take it as a possible theory. Do you own the M500 by the way? Do you own any other amps to compare them?

I should also underline, that M500 is the DAC used in one of the testing paths I have described, where using either an RCA out or XLR out from M500 going to the Logitech Z-2300 (old school TXH certified, class AB) active speaker setup with headphone out, I am getting much fuller (better sounding) low frequencies, compared to M500 headphone out.