The most important parameter of all: overall system integrity

[fas42]

No sound with it, but a post by Mike Lavigne at WBF, regarding a room at the current LA Audio Show expresses what I look for ...

room 203---Evolution Acoustics, darTZeel, Durand Tonearms and Telos dac.----more comments----I have to say I'm really impressed with the speakers Kevin Malmgren of Evolution Acoustics has built. I spent a lot of time in this room and listened to lots of different types of music. at first your eyes tell you this speaker before you simply cannot be putting out the sound you are hearing. but after watching these speakers take over 1100 watts from the big bad dart 458 mono blocks Friday night (Herve Deleatraz, Mr. darTZeel, kept pushing them) playing 'You Shook Me All Night Long' at warp 11+ I stopped questioning and just believed my ears. they do scale, they do tone, they do lots of texture and never get compressed or flustered, with super low distortion up and down the FR scale. and it just has this involving, sexy sound. Wow!

 

[fas42]

People may not picked this interesting evolution in the listening experiences of 'subjectivist' audiophiles of late: many people who were the key holdouts against digital, claiming it could never be as good as vinyl, say, are now transitioning to the point of getting comparable results from both sides - meaning, those are throw up that tired old bone of "vinyl has euphonic distortions that those people can't get enough of!" will need to retreat to behind another excuse barrier, to explain why those people "haven't got a clue ..."

 

[watchnerd]

People may not picked this interesting evolution in the listening experiences of 'subjectivist' audiophiles of late: many people who were the key holdouts against digital, claiming it could never be as good as vinyl, say, are now transitioning to the point of getting comparable results from both sides - meaning, those are throw up that tired old bone of "vinyl has euphonic distortions that those people can't get enough of!" will need to retreat to behind another excuse barrier, to explain why those people "haven't got a clue ..."

Huh? I have no idea what you're referring to. Nor can I parse that paragraph.

 

[fas42]

Okay, I'll play it another way:

* Many people mock audiophile enthusiasts who believe analogue replay is superior to digital - including people on this forum
* The people who mock the others claim that a key reason is that vinyl replay adds "nice distortion" to the sound - making it more appealing, palatable compared to "neutral" digital
* Which means digital replay for those vinyl advocates is doomed to always sound "less good" - because, as all here know, digital is already perfect .
* The fly in the ointment in this tale is that many of those poor audiophiles are now assembling digital chains, from components which measure beautifully - and, it sounds as good as analogue! ... Oh, horror!!
* What can this mean? Have those crafty manufacturers slipped in a bit of analogue wobbliness on the sly, to placate these deprived listeners? Or, could it mean that they've managed to reduce some hard to measure anomalies so that the listening is more pleasurable? ... Hmmm ... I'm on ASR ... naahhh!!

 

[watchnerd]

Okay, I'll play it another way:

* The fly in the ointment in this tale is that many of those poor audiophiles are now assembling digital chains, from components which measure beautifully - and, it sounds as good as analogue! ... Oh, horror!!

a) When Michael Fremer admits to a digital chain sounding as good as vinyl, you might be on to a trend. Until then, I haven't seen any vinyl die-hards jumping ship. I have seen a few who admit modern digital is "acceptable" and convenient.

b) I happen to enjoy my turntable, which also has a tube phono stage, so it's doubly euphonically distorted. I don't think it's better or more accurate than my digital stuff. But I still like it.

c) I can use DSP plugins to emulate tubes, even different kinds. I haven't found (or looked for) an IGD, rumble, or wow simulators.

 

[c1ferrari]

One might learn a lot reading this nifty little missive.

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

Thanks for posting the Rane link...I've found it elucidating for some time, now.

 

[c1ferrari]

Cable manufacturer offers cable A,B,C & E price @ 1,2,3,4 dollars per ft and each offer more clarity,speed,dynamics,tonal nuance. What are they measuring? http://www.rane.com/note166.html

Thanks for the Rane note...I haven't seen it before.

 

[fas42]

Not worrying about MF, he's largely polical - just keeping an eye on WBF, and that's where some of the changes are happening. The language is a long way beyond "acceptable and convenient".

I have heard staggeringly good LP, once or twice, many years ago - recently, mostly mediocre, from expensive components. Overall, too much to fuss over, not for me.

 

[c1ferrari]

This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that the "live music" reference standard is a red herring: the (multiple) mics aren't placed where the audience is.

How close are you getting to live music with your live-to-two-track recordings?
Is your objective to capture the sound as you hear/experience it?
Thanks.

 

[Thomas savage]

People may not picked this interesting evolution in the listening experiences of 'subjectivist' audiophiles of late: many people who were the key holdouts against digital, claiming it could never be as good as vinyl, say, are now transitioning to the point of getting comparable results from both sides - meaning, those are throw up that tired old bone of "vinyl has euphonic distortions that those people can't get enough of!" will need to retreat to behind another excuse barrier, to explain why those people "haven't got a clue ..."

Well I guess digital has got suitably expensive

 

[watchnerd]

Not worrying about MF, he's largely polical - just keeping an eye on WBF, and that's where some of the changes are happening. The language is a long way beyond "acceptable and convenient".

Oh, those navel-gazers...

I ignore WBF completely. They're too much into hot-boxing their own farts.

 

[Don Hills]

... They're too much into hot-boxing their own farts.

Whereas here, we light them.

 

[fas42]

Well I guess digital has got suitably expensive

Well, exceedingly expensive audio components have been around forever, and plenty of them have got a big thumbs down from those who can pull out a fat wallet.

If you buy an expensive, showy car which is a real lemon, then you're only going to tolerate using this on a day to day for so long - given a modicum of intelligence ...

 

[watchnerd]

If system integrity is a parameter, how does one objectively measure it and what are the units?

 

[Cosmik]

Okay, I'll play it another way:

* Many people mock audiophile enthusiasts who believe analogue replay is superior to digital - including people on this forum
* The people who mock the others claim that a key reason is that vinyl replay adds "nice distortion" to the sound - making it more appealing, palatable compared to "neutral" digital
* Which means digital replay for those vinyl advocates is doomed to always sound "less good" - because, as all here know, digital is already perfect .
* The fly in the ointment in this tale is that many of those poor audiophiles are now assembling digital chains, from components which measure beautifully - and, it sounds as good as analogue! ... Oh, horror!!
* What can this mean? Have those crafty manufacturers slipped in a bit of analogue wobbliness on the sly, to placate these deprived listeners? Or, could it mean that they've managed to reduce some hard to measure anomalies so that the listening is more pleasurable? ... Hmmm ... I'm on ASR ... naahhh!!

An interesting interpretation you have there. There are many reasons why some people preferred vinyl, and why they may be switching to digital (if that is actually happening). A few of them might be:

• musical experiences are much more intense when we are young - it's understandable that people attribute it to the technology of the time
• but their previous prejudice has simply been worn down by many years of pops, scratches and hard labour looking after their records
• vinyl has become trendy, yet they define themselves by their opposition to the young and hipsters - time to make the move to unfashionable digital
• LPs and vinyl paraphernalia are now much more expensive than they were because of the trendiness factor. There are no classic albums to be found at car boot sales any more - only James Last, and even that costs £15.
• the marketing of MQA as a brand new method of listening to music - not digital and better than analogue - has worked its magic
• being told that digital has been developed to the point of removing hard-to-measure (i.e. non-existent) anomalies has caused them to hear what they wanted to hear all along. Now they, too, can enjoy all the music in the world for £10 a month, 15 years after everyone else, without continually persuading themselves that it sounds metallic or plastic or like a staircase.

 

[watchnerd]

• vinyl has become trendy, yet they define themselves by their opposition to the young and hipsters - time to make the move to unfashionable digital

+1

I think you nailed it right there. Middle-aged rich white dudes need to differentiate themselves from millenials newly into vinyl.

 

[Thomas savage]

+1

I think you nailed it right there. Middle-aged rich white dudes need to differentiate themselves from millenials newly into vinyl.

Well I know that's why I bought my CD player.

High end audio is not famed for integrity in any way shape or form..

 

[watchnerd]

Well I know that's why I bought my CD player.

High end audio is not famed for integrity in any way shape of form..

No even.... system integrity?

 

[Thomas savage]

No even.... system integrity?

There's a impressive integrity to the mass delusion .. so much so apparently God is jealous

 

[fas42]

If system integrity is a parameter, how does one objectively measure it and what are the units?

Okay, let me pull down my Wikipedia from the shelf now ... ...

Let's see,

A parameter (from the Ancient Greek παρά, para: "beside", "subsidiary"; and μέτρον, metron: "measure"), generally, is any characteristic that can help in defining or classifying a particular system (meaning an event, project, object, situation, etc.). That is, a parameter is an element of a system that is useful, or critical, when identifying the system, or when evaluating its performance, status, condition, etc.

Hmmm, not too bad ...