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Speaker sensitivity

Thomas savage

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could someone explain the design dilemma involved when aiming for sensitivity in loudspeaker design.

Does our access to cheap power ( class D) negate the need for sensitive speaker design?

Do the trends in sensitivity relate at all with contemporary music recordings, their nature being more adeptly satisfied by a particular design?

Please discuss..,
 

Blumlein 88

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It might help to read up a bit on the basics of thiele small design parameters for speakers. Then you will be in a better position to understand what the trade-offs are.

Just a snippet. A light cone can be better, but it has to work within other factors to be efficient. Some of those factors being air springiness (related to box type and volume) and the magnetic values of voice-coils and speaker surround springiness. You might design a light efficient cone speaker, but the cone might not take much power without problems. Or you might design a heavy sturdy cone which will take a ton of power, but have other tuning and response issues. So there are limits and multi-level interactions. You can't just say, heck with efficiency I have 5 kwatts to throw at it. Designing a speaker that could take that power, not burn up, respond properly and have everything tuned for good response simply might not fit the physics of what is possible.
 
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Thomas savage

Thomas savage

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It might help to read up a bit on the basics of thiele small design parameters for speakers. Then you will be in a better position to understand what the trade-offs are.

Just a snippet. A light cone can be better, but it has to work within other factors to be efficient. Some of those factors being air springiness (related to box type and volume) and the magnetic values of voice-coils and speaker surround springiness. You might design a light efficient cone speaker, but the cone might not take much power without problems. Or you might design a heavy sturdy cone which will take a ton of power, but have other tuning and response issues. So there are limits and multi-level interactions. You can't just say, heck with efficiency I have 5 kwatts to throw at it. Designing a speaker that could take that power, not burn up, respond properly and have everything tuned for good response simply might not fit the physics of what is possible.
Thanks, the main motivation here is to explore the subject in order to inform and expand understanding of our potential readership rather than me specifically:)

I just pose as the dumb arse , well it's such a easy roll for me :D
 

RayDunzl

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I don't know anything about it, myself, other than if I put 2.83Vrms across my speaker leads, I get about 88dB at the listening position (10 feet).

The brochure claims

Sensitivity 90 dB/2.83 volts/meter

So, it's about right, maybe, and I have more than enough power to throw at them for any sane listening session.
 

fas42

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If the amplifiers can deliver high power cleanly then the sensitivity of the speaker is not a problem. And the most recent designs in class D seem capable of good behaviour. If one's options in amplifier power don't include such components, then you're much better off with horns and other units which offer higher sensitivity.
 

watchnerd

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Thanks, the main motivation here is to explore the subject in order to inform and expand understanding of our potential readership rather than me specifically:)

I just pose as the dumb arse , well it's such a easy roll for me :D

So think of a fictitious extreme case:

I have a cone made of high density unobtanium that allows me to have a Fs (resonant frequency) of 20 Hz, a cone break-up mode at 5 Khz, all in a 3" driver, with a max excursion of something insane, infinite power handling and thermal capacity, and a sensitivity of a horrible 70 dB at 1 m. As long as I have infinite power, I don't care about its crappy 70 dB sens.

The advent of good class D amps have nudged us a bit closer to infinite power, which makes it possible to pursue even smaller cabinets with smaller drivers (with high excursions) with deeper resonant frequencies.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that power is so efficient now that the bottleneck is firmly on the driver side.

That wasn't always the case. In the early stereo days, power was so pitiful and inefficient that every driver had to be relatively high sensitivity (and often limited bandwidth), and given the driver tech at the time, big boxes, to get even decent mid-bass.

Many say that high efficiency speakers + low power sounds more dynamic than low efficiency speakers + high power, although it's not obvious why that should be the case. Yes, the lower efficiency speaker may have higher inertia, but F = ma and with enough electromotive force it should be just as 'quick'.
 

watchnerd

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Do the trends in sensitivity relate at all with contemporary music recordings, their nature being more adeptly satisfied by a particular design?

Please discuss..,

Contemporary music covers a huge rash of genres, but there is one thing they all (except classical and some jazz) have in common and its the increasing use of compression, the lowering of dynamic range, and that YouTube ranks as the #1 music service in America (maybe worldwide).

These are not conditions that reward the ability to deliver on dynamic contrasts, so if high efficiency speakers really are better at dynamic contrasts, it doesn't matter that much to today's average consumer.

A Klipschorn might be great for listening to the 1812 Overture, but I don't think it's doing Justin Bieber any favors.
 

watchnerd

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If the amplifiers can deliver high power cleanly then the sensitivity of the speaker is not a problem. And the most recent designs in class D seem capable of good behaviour. If one's options in amplifier power don't include such components, then you're much better off with horns and other units which offer higher sensitivity.

I've been using Class D for 8-9 years or so, first with a Rotel IcePower stereo amp, now with 2nd generation IcePower monoblocks from Wyred4Sound, and if I get one of the new JBL 7-series, with whatever Class D amps it comes with.

I've never heard any of the issues some complain about. But then again I'm not using a cheap Lepai 50W amp, either.

That being said, I do prefer IcePower amps with a tube preamp.
 

Sal1950

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Many say that high efficiency speakers + low power sounds more dynamic than low efficiency speakers + high power, although it's not obvious why that should be the case.
IMO, All other things being equal high efficiency speakers just sound more dynamic, period. Add more power and that quality is just enhanced up to the point it doesn't matter anymore. The latest JBL actives from the studio monitors to the big M2 show proof of design in mating a very clean, fairly powerful amp to driver designs that couple to the air in a efficient manner.
In comparison the "audiophile" sealed box designs have always sounded very constrained, restricted and missing life-air to me. Add a 1K watt amp and they're still stuffed up next to good horns. Humm, sealed-stuffed up, kind of goes hand in hand. LOL
 

Blumlein 88

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Contemporary music covers a huge rash of genres, but there is one thing they all (except classical and some jazz) have in common and its the increasing use of compression, the lowering of dynamic range, and that YouTube ranks as the #1 music service in America (maybe worldwide).

These are not conditions that reward the ability to deliver on dynamic contrasts, so if high efficiency speakers really are better at dynamic contrasts, it doesn't matter that much to today's average consumer.

A Klipschorn might be great for listening to the 1812 Overture, but I don't think it's doing Justin Bieber any favors.

You realize you are making a big argument to go with the K-horn. No self respecting person would decide their speakers based upon how well they serve Bieber. I have listened to K-horns, but never with Bieber over them. And I damned well intend to keep it that way.
 

watchnerd

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You realize you are making a big argument to go with the K-horn. No self respecting person would decide their speakers based upon how well they serve Bieber. I have listened to K-horns, but never with Bieber over them. And I damned well intend to keep it that way.

I have heard K-horns. I like K-horns.

(They're just so damn big).

I have heard Bieber. I do not like Bieber. I have heard Bieber on K-horns and liked him even less. Which probably means they're good speakers (i.e ****** crap sounds even shittier).

As for buying something based on how Bieber sounds on it, yes, I know people who do that when shopping for BlueTooth speakers.
 

Blumlein 88

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Perhaps a smarter person could make it simpler. Here is a presentation about speaker parameters. Things you would use with the thiele-small guidelines to design with. There is some math, and conclusions beyond what is presented here. This will begin to get to the issues around speaker sensitivity and the related physical properties.

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece103/LectureNotes/SRS_Loudspeaker_Parameters.pdf
 

watchnerd

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Perhaps a smarter person could make it simpler. Here is a presentation about speaker parameters. Things you would use with the thiele-small guidelines to design with. There is some math, and conclusions beyond what is presented here. This will begin to get to the issues around speaker sensitivity and the related physical properties.

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece103/LectureNotes/SRS_Loudspeaker_Parameters.pdf

I'm never going to ask you to explain something to my mom.....ever.
 

fas42

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Sal1950

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Perhaps a smarter person could make it simpler. Here is a presentation about speaker parameters. Things you would use with the thiele-small guidelines to design with. There is some math, and conclusions beyond what is presented here. This will begin to get to the issues around speaker sensitivity and the related physical properties.

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece103/LectureNotes/SRS_Loudspeaker_Parameters.pdf
Also gets into speaker cable interactions, a nice tool the have when discussing such with those of the subjective bend.
Thanks bud.
 

dallasjustice

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Highly efficient speakers are much better suited to modern music. As you correctly state, there's a lot of DR compression. The result is music which is intended to be played much louder. Since the artist intended their music be played loud, the listener will listen at greater levels. High efficiency speakers are usually much better at playing loud than lower efficiency speakers. Everyone wants more DR. But that's not the world we find ourselves in anymore. It's time to move on, IMO.

I've found DR compression and the loudness Wars to be an overrated complaint amongst audiophiles. I think the real problem is that most audiophile speaker just don't play well loud. Well designed horns can solve this problem.
Contemporary music covers a huge rash of genres, but there is one thing they all (except classical and some jazz) have in common and its the increasing use of compression, the lowering of dynamic range, and that YouTube ranks as the #1 music service in America (maybe worldwide).

These are not conditions that reward the ability to deliver on dynamic contrasts, so if high efficiency speakers really are better at dynamic contrasts, it doesn't matter that much to today's average consumer.

A Klipschorn might be great for listening to the 1812 Overture, but I don't think it's doing Justin Bieber any favors.
 

Cosmik

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In comparison the "audiophile" sealed box designs have always sounded very constrained, restricted and missing life-air to me. Add a 1K watt amp and they're still stuffed up next to good horns.
It would be nice to see plots or numbers that show this to be the case. I sometimes wonder whether like is being compared with like, and whether it is frequency response differences or whatever, that are giving (some people) the illusion of extra dynamism. Active box speakers sound lovely and dynamic to me.
 
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Thomas savage

Thomas savage

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Highly efficient speakers are much better suited to modern music. As you correctly state, there's a lot of DR compression. The result is music which is intended to be played much louder. Since the artist intended their music be played loud, the listener will listen at greater levels. High efficiency speakers are usually much better at playing loud than lower efficiency speakers. Everyone wants more DR. But that's not the world we find ourselves in anymore. It's time to move on, IMO.

I've found DR compression and the loudness Wars to be an overrated complaint amongst audiophiles. I think the real problem is that most audiophile speaker just don't play well loud. Well designed horns can solve this problem.
Pragmatic, I agree.
 

Purité Audio

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Historically speakers had to be 'sensitive' so big boxes, huge drivers ,weak magnets , low powered amps etc etc, now power is cheap and plentiful, I have both horns 100dB and dynamic active speakers here , different but both good.
Keith
 

fas42

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Highly efficient speakers are much better suited to modern music. As you correctly state, there's a lot of DR compression. The result is music which is intended to be played much louder. Since the artist intended their music be played loud, the listener will listen at greater levels. High efficiency speakers are usually much better at playing loud than lower efficiency speakers. Everyone wants more DR. But that's not the world we find ourselves in anymore. It's time to move on, IMO.

I've found DR compression and the loudness Wars to be an overrated complaint amongst audiophiles. I think the real problem is that most audiophile speaker just don't play well loud. Well designed horns can solve this problem.
The modern highly compressed pop is a 'problem', not because systems can't do it, but because psychologically it doesn't work. To be listened to on an ongoing basis they actually need systems which are poor in delivering high impact sound, which compress severely at higher SPLs. If one plays such a track on a competent rig at high volumes, completely cleanly, then it becomes like a physical onslaught - emotionally, it wears one out extremely quickly; a single track is enough for one to say, no more!!
 
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