Should I? Or no?

[Blumlein 88]

Audio is better in CO since the air is clearer thus sound waves are less distorted by atmospheric pollutants. The altitude reduces pressure on the ear drums so your hearing is improved. Higher highs, deeper lows, greater speed and clarity in the sound.

There.

Speed of sound is faster in humid conditions. Faster for higher temperature. As for air pressure you need to look at temps and take into account density altitude effects.

 

[DonH56]

Don't cloud the issue with facts. Where do you think you're posting, anyway?

Seriously, I've spent a fair amount of time dealing with how sound velocity varies with humidity, density, temperature and such since I have to play in tune with the group. Pitch changes as you play so you have to dynamically compensate, and brass, reeds, and strings tend to shift in different ways since they are more affected by different parameters. It gets pretty interesting and there is a lot of research on it. Of course I have to put all the analysis aside and just play the durn thing when performing...

 

[Dynamix]

Ok, so this thread has turned into a fight over who gets my 4319's for free?

PM me some selfies, the prettiest one of you gets them!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ok, so this thread has turned into a fight over who gets my 4319's for free?

PM me some selfies, the prettiest one of you gets them!

You may live to regret that request.

 

[Dynamix]

On a (somewhat) serious note, I will wait to hear how they perform in the new apartment before I do anything. Haven't done any measuments in my current room, but I'm pretty sure I'm sitting in a huge null and that's what causing the lack of bass.

 

[Dynamix]

You may live to regret that request.

I have no shame!

 

[Blumlein 88]

On a (somewhat) serious note, I will wait to hear how they perform in the new apartment before I do anything. Haven't done any measuments in my current room, but I'm pretty sure I'm sitting in a huge null and that's what causing the lack of bass.

There is an old trick if you have no measuring gear available. Put the speaker where you normally listen. Play some bass heavy music or some bass sweep tones. Walk around near where you might put the speakers. Find a place with good bass. Move the speaker there and go sit in the listening spot.

 

[Dynamix]

Just to broaden the discussion from the bass issue: I am slightly skeptical of the idea that revealing loudspeakers make bad recordings sound bad. My experience so far has been that really good loudspeakers make bad recordings sound better. My hunch is that the "unforgiving" things you are hearing actually is distortion that is generated by the driver, probably the tweeter/waveguide.

I don't really agree with that. Look at it this way: You play a recording that has weak bass, exaggerated mids, and shrill higs on a pair of speakers that has a bump in the bass, recessed mids, and rolled of treble. It might sound pretty decent, right? Now try playing that same recording on a pair of speakers that have a pretty flat response. Will it sound better or worse?

 

[Dynamix]

And when I say "bad recordings", I'm not necessarily thinking "bad recordings" in the typical audiophile sense. You know, where the professional recording engineer used AKG mics instead of Neumann's, and used one week rather than one month to get them dialled in.

I'm thinking "recorded in a concrete basement on a 150euro usb-interface, mixed on a pair of 50euro headphones by a drunk and stoned drummer, and mastered on a cheap laptop that was found in a dumpster".

 

[oivavoi]

I don't really agree with that. Look at it this way: You play a recording that has weak bass, exaggerated mids, and shrill higs on a pair of speakers that has a bump in the bass, recessed mids, and rolled of treble. It might sound pretty decent, right? Now try playing that same recording on a pair of speakers that have a pretty flat response. Will it sound better or worse?

Ok, good point! But I was thinking more of cases where one compares like with like. Say, two speakers that measure reasonably flat. My experience is that the better of these two speakers will be more comfortable to listen to, and will make bad recordings more tolerable, than the lesser speaker. But this is only based on anecdotal experiences and my gut feeling!

 

[Dynamix]

Ok, good point! But I was thinking more of cases where one compares like with like. Say, two speakers that measure reasonably flat. My experience is that the better of these two speakers will be more comfortable to listen to, and will make bad recordings more tolerable, than the lesser speaker. But this is only based on anecdotal experiences and my gut feeling!

I dunno. I'm kinda thinking that if a speaker makes a bad recording sound better, then that speaker is obviously smoothing over flaws and "coloring" the sound in some way.

 

[oivavoi]

Perhaps. But for me, the best test for finding out how something "should" sound is to listen to good and neutral headphones. It's easier to get it right, I believe, when the drivers almost don't have to move and there's no crossover to mess things up. I seldom find that my Sennheiser 650s make bad recordings sound piercing etc. With speakers, however, I often have the experience that the same recordings can sound annoying. My thinking has therefore been that this may be about distortion in speakers... but I might be wrong here.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Perhaps. But for me, the best test for finding out how something "should" sound is to listen to good and neutral headphones. It's easier to get it right, I believe, when the drivers almost don't have to move and there's no crossover to mess things up. I seldom find that my Sennheiser 650s make bad recordings sound piercing etc. With speakers, however, I often have the experience that the same recordings can sound annoying. My thinking has therefore been that this may be about distortion in speakers... but I might be wrong here.

Measurements of dozens of modern speakers indicate very, very little distortion.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18

Here is a long list you can use. Pick several and look at the distortion plots. Anything with distortion -40 db from the signal is 1 % distortion. Most modern speakers seem able to keep to less than that. Ray has posted several plots showing distortion too and there is not very much there.

 

[Dynamix]

Yeah, I think that distortion is the last thing that's wrong with my 4319's.

 

[oivavoi]

Measurements of dozens of modern speakers indicate very, very little distortion.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18

Here is a long list you can use. Pick several and look at the distortion plots. Anything with distortion -40 db from the signal is 1 % distortion. Most modern speakers seem able to keep to less than that. Ray has posted several plots showing distortion too and there is not very much there.

Thanks. Will take a look. I'm still not entirely convinced that those measurements really capture everything, though - music signals tend to be more complex than test tones!

Btw, I have no idea whether the 4319s actually have distortion or not, Dynamix. You might very well be right.

 

[RayDunzl]

music signals tend to be more complex than test tones

The "sound" of musical instruments is all about the harmonic distortion of the fundamental,

If not, all instruments would sound the same.

Here is my voice, singing "Ahhhhhhhhhhhh"

 

[March Audio]

On a (somewhat) serious note, I will wait to hear how they perform in the new apartment before I do anything. Haven't done any measuments in my current room, but I'm pretty sure I'm sitting in a huge null and that's what causing the lack of bass.

If you dont have a mic or dont want to pwrform measurements you can still use REW software to give a good idea if you are listening in a null postion. It has a room simulation feature where you input the room size speaker and and listener position. It then plot cthe predicted response. You can slide the positions around and see the effect on the respnse.

 

[Thomas savage]

And when I say "bad recordings", I'm not necessarily thinking "bad recordings" in the typical audiophile sense. You know, where the professional recording engineer used AKG mics instead of Neumann's, and used one week rather than one month to get them dialled in.

I'm thinking "recorded in a concrete basement on a 150euro usb-interface, mixed on a pair of 50euro headphones by a drunk and stoned drummer, and mastered on a cheap laptop that was found in a dumpster".

Oh you mean your recordings ...

 

[oivavoi]

The "sound" of musical instruments is all about the harmonic distortion of the fundamental,

If not, all instruments would sound the same.

Here is my voice, singing "Ahhhhhhhhhhhh"

View attachment 6917

Thanks. I'm aware of that, of course. My question is rather whether there's more distortion in loudspeakers - in almost all loudspeakers - than what is commonly assumed and measured. The reason for this is that loudspeakers just sound different, in my experience - even when they measure more or less equally flat. My hunch is that this is because of very subtle distortions. Now these differences may be about differences in the time domain or in dispersion characteristics, of course. Or it may be that I wouldn't perceive these differences in a controlled comparison.

But another reason why I have this hunch is that I've never perceived acoustic unamplified sounds to be harsh or "unforgiving". Unless it's a violin that's heavily out of tune or something. It's only amplified and reproduced sounds which can sound harsh to my ears - and more so with certain speakers than with others. Again, my impression may be wrong here. But so far I explained this to myself with "distortion".

But: This is all anecdotal on my part! No strong claims here.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm thinking "recorded in a concrete basement on a 150euro usb-interface, mixed on a pair of 50euro headphones by a drunk and stoned drummer, and mastered on a cheap laptop that was found in a dumpster"

I'm thinking recorded using 60-80s studio boards and techniques where the music has been processed thru hundreds of $.02 op-amps and other uber cheap early solid state circuits.
With those recordings the more transparent our HiFi got, the more the negative aspects of these things became audible. Hard, edgy sounding grit that is uncomfortable to listen to for extended periods.
My 40-50s Sinatra. etc; stuff recorded on tubes with simpler signal paths doesn't suffer these issues. The UK 21 CD set The Capitol Years though rolled off top and bottom has some spooky transparency on some cuts. The original tapes were remastered to 20 bit digital and this set was released in 1998. THE Sinatra set to own IMO but pretty rare and hard to find now.