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Our perception of audio

Dynamix

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Good thing since Steve is deleting your posts anyway :).

Wow. And he was the guy claiming that WBF was "for everyone". Lol. Guess "the cat is out of the bag", right?

At this point WBF is looking more and more like the subjectivist equivalent of Hydrogenaudio. Well, at least I can respect HA for being upfront about not wanting subjectivists. WBF on the other hand are still pretending that objectivists are welcome. When it's more that obvious that they're not. Worst forum ever.
 

Thomas savage

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Wow. And he was the guy claiming that WBF was "for everyone". Lol. Guess "the cat is out of the bag", right?

At this point WBF is looking more and more like the subjectivist equivalent of Hydrogenaudio. Well, at least I can respect HA for being upfront about not wanting subjectivists. WBF on the other hand are still pretending that objectivists are welcome. When it's more that obvious that they're not. Worst forum ever.
To be fair to them members tend to ask for ' a save haven' and keeping guys with pola opposite views all together is a lot of work and a thankless task in many ways.

It's very very easy to end up with a situation like WBF or hydrogen-audio, members ' say' they want inclusivity and freedom but don't always keep to these ideals them selfs in their contributions.

A popular Audiophile forum that has a reverence for audio engineering and reasoned argument but does not exclude free thought... That was my hope for this place, the reality is our members don't want that.

That's exactly the same issue at WBF ( not the only issue though) loads of guys who love to freely express their thought based on what they 'think' they hear and why they 'think' they hear it. They reject as a collective any suggestions that restrict this ' free' flow of expression.

What you realise when you do my job is, you can't escape human behaviour tendencies. The more you try the more you succumb to it, it's like trying to escape quick sand. So far I can see no way out.

Of course anyone who upsets the apple cart gets rounded on and booted out. The members rejoice thusly reinforcing the actions taken by management. It's a dangerous cycle and one that's already started here.

So be tolerant and understand diversity is a key factor to being relevant or at least being seen to be relevant. It's oh so easy to inadvertently become a variant of what you despise.

All societies need to question themselves regularly and rigorously. it's rare to find individuals or collectives that freely do this themselves ( I do it but I am special :D). They have to be forced, and it ain't pretty.
 
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Dynamix

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I've been a mod on a couple of sites, so I know what you're saying. But neither of those places turned into HA or WBF.

And I don't want this place to go down that road either. And I don't think it will. Because we're better than that, believe it or not. :cool:
 

Blumlein 88

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Though not the same files I used here for people to vote on recently, I used some similar files with someone I knew. Big time subjectivist and very, very confident of his abilities. That is okay, I was like that too at one time(well maybe not as arrogantly confident, but pretty confident).

So I send him an original and recordings of multiple DACs. He makes his choices, then reverses them, while explaining why he was hearing it alright just got it wrong. Asks which file is the original so he can have a reference. Make some more choices. Asks to know one of the DACs for comparison. Eventually there are only 6 possible choices with all I have told him. He has made 3 of them, listens some more, with flowery prose and explanations of the delicate perceptions that are only now coming clear to him with extended repeat listening makes a definitive choice about which is which. Goes on much too long about how sure he is now, why he is sure, what he hears that makes him certain, and says he would place big time money betting he is right. Yet despite the certainty tells me someone with lesser gear and lesser listening experience might miss it altogether.

I reveal what is what, and despite 4 shots of 6 possibilities he has missed it every time. He works things around after this, never admitting he ....was.....simply.....wrong and manages a face saving story that though confused by the testing procedure there is no question, NO QUESTION, the things he heard were real. I recognize some of the rationalizing in myself in times past. He is just as confident as ever while whiffing it 4 times (which at random he should have gotten right once 67% of the time). To me the flailing about and self serving, self reinforcing actions are obvious and embarrassing to witness. This from someone willing to do the listening and show what they can hear.

I have to remind myself to be kind, understanding and put myself in their shoes (and I once inhabited them mostly). Still................................WOW it is a big time head game we play on ourselves. I understand the attraction to, the sense of mystery, and personal discovery, the camaraderie the feeling of an acolyte reaching deeper levels of understanding and personal perception. Heady and highly satisfying addictive mind games there. I understand why it has an attraction and one is loathe to ditch it. Which is also why I think so many "trust your ears" audiophiles are not at all likely to put up and listen unsighted. It is so uncomfortable to risk that sense of special self one has built up. Yet it is simply them and they can't be otherwise than to go on at great lengths about all they hear when they know the gear in use. No wonder a common response if they do try it blind is that something is wrong with the test. The experience is so different (no bias from sight is not why it is different). It has such a different feeling it must be wrong it isn't how they normally listen. It should be obvious the different lost at sea feeling listening unsighted is a lack of their built up manufactured feeling for what they are hearing with familiar gear. Yet they can't accept that is so. You must be testing for the wrong thing if their finely honed perception suddenly vanishes.
 

Thomas savage

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I've been a mod on a couple of sites, so I know what you're saying. But neither of those places turned into HA or WBF.

And I don't want this place to go down that road either. And I don't think it will. Because we're better than that, believe it or not. :cool:
Yea, but that's what everyone thinks... Not all subject matter is as potentially divisive as audio, plus people's brains can harden as they get older and are less 'open to new thoughts and ways' as a result.

Funny how we never ever ever have issues in the music threads, though we all have ' opinions' about music and it involves us in a very emotive way.. Still never any issues with anyone, anywhere.

Sorry for this interruption to thread.
 
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Thomas savage

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Though not the same files I used here for people to vote on recently, I used some similar files with someone I knew. Big time subjectivist and very, very confident of his abilities. That is okay, I was like that too at one time(well maybe not as arrogantly confident, but pretty confident).

So I send him an original and recordings of multiple DACs. He makes his choices, then reverses them, while explaining why he was hearing it alright just got it wrong. Asks which file is the original so he can have a reference. Make some more choices. Asks to know one of the DACs for comparison. Eventually there are only 6 possible choices with all I have told him. He has made 3 of them, listens some more, with flowery prose and explanations of the delicate perceptions that are only now coming clear to him with extended repeat listening makes a definitive choice about which is which. Goes on much too long about how sure he is now, why he is sure, what he hears that makes him certain, and says he would place big time money betting he is right. Yet despite the certainty tells me someone with lesser gear and lesser listening experience might miss it altogether.

I reveal what is what, and despite 4 shots of 6 possibilities he has missed it every time. He works things around after this, never admitting he ....was.....simply.....wrong and manages a face saving story that though confused by the testing procedure there is no question, NO QUESTION, the things he heard were real. I recognize some of the rationalizing in myself in times past. He is just as confident as ever while whiffing it 4 times (which at random he should have gotten right once 67% of the time). To me the flailing about and self serving, self reinforcing actions are obvious and embarrassing to witness. This from someone willing to do the listening and show what they can hear.

I have to remind myself to be kind, understanding and put myself in their shoes (and I once inhabited them mostly). Still................................WOW it is a big time head game we play on ourselves. I understand the attraction to, the sense of mystery, and personal discovery, the camaraderie the feeling of an acolyte reaching deeper levels of understanding and personal perception. Heady and highly satisfying addictive mind games there. I understand why it has an attraction and one is loathe to ditch it. Which is also why I think so many "trust your ears" audiophiles are not at all likely to put up and listen unsighted. It is so uncomfortable to risk that sense of special self one has built up. Yet it is simply them and they can't be otherwise than to go on at great lengths about all they hear when they know the gear in use. No wonder a common response if they do try it blind is that something is wrong with the test. The experience is so different (no bias from sight is not why it is different). It has such a different feeling it must be wrong it isn't how they normally listen. It should be obvious the different lost at sea feeling listening unsighted is a lack of their built up manufactured feeling for what they are hearing with familiar gear. Yet they can't accept that is so. You must be testing for the wrong thing if their finely honed perception suddenly vanishes.
no one likes being found out, I think deep down these kind of individuals know they are most likely deluding themselves but they enjoy it like you say. Backed by a crowd that enables this pleasant delusion, it's the basis of a beautiful friendship :D

These behavioural tendencies are universal and not in anyway restricted to audio. Most will be doing a version of this in a area of their life's.

Great post! You found a truth there imo what you describe sounds like the foundations of religious practice... Only my opinion mind you.

What we must ask ourselves is ' what's our motivation for unmasking and exposing these delusions?' ' how does it make us feel?' .... A Equally difficult proposition! Unlikely to reveal anything 'good'.
 
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Dynamix

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Yea, but that's what everyone thinks... Not all subject matter is as potentially divisive as audio, plus people's brains can harden as they get older and are less 'open to new thoughts and ways' as a result.

Funny how we never ever ever have issues in the music threads, though we all have ' opinions' about music and it involves us in a very emotive way.. Still never any issues with anyone, anywhere.

Sorry for this interruption to thread.

Funny how audio is so divisive. We're all a bunch of nerds sitting in our basements arguing over nothing. :D
 

RayDunzl

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No basements here, boss.
 

Sal1950

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What we must ask ourselves is ' what's our motivation for unmasking and exposing these delusions?' ' how does it make us feel?' .... A Equally difficult proposition! Unlikely to reveal anything 'good'.
Someone must shine the light into the darkness Thomas. ;)
 

Blumlein 88

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no one likes being found out, I think deep down these kind of individuals know they are most likely deluding themselves but they enjoy it like you say. Backed by a crowd that enables this pleasant delusion, it's the basis of a beautiful friendship :D

These behavioural tendencies are universal and not in anyway restricted to audio. Most will be doing a version of this in a area of their life's.

Great post! You found a truth there imo what you describe sounds like the foundations of religious practice... Only my option.

What we must ask ourselves is ' what's our motivation for unmasking and exposing these delusions?' ' how does it make us feel?' .... A Equally difficult proposition! Unlikely to reveal anything 'good'.


On the contrary. My motivation is to find out how things work, to find out the truth. When I approached it differently that was part of it too. So unmasking and exposing my own delusions is a step to get closer to the truth. I would prefer like minded folks to aid me in that journey and I would aid them when possible. I don't feel this reveals anything un-good. At times personal foibles may crop up that aren't good, but the core approach and core goals are nothing whatsoever for which we need be ashamed.
 

Thomas savage

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On the contrary. My motivation is to find out how things work, to find out the truth. When I approached it differently that was part of it too. So unmasking and exposing my own delusions is a step to get closer to the truth. I would prefer like minded folks to aid me in that journey and I would aid them when possible. I don't feel this reveals anything un-good. At times personal foibles may crop up that aren't good, but the core approach and core goals are nothing whatsoever for which we need be ashamed.
This is my mission, to unmask my own delusions. Its prudent to ask questions of ones motivations at times. No accusations being infered, just questions i also ask myself.

To question seems to be a principle that binds us all, may i suggest we also dare to look even if the answer is uncomfortable to us. This is certainly at the core of me not just here in a audio forum.
 

Intamin

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Just thought I'd shine some recent personal experience on the perception of audio...

Was listening to spotify the other day on my system (focal sopra 3s and devialet 220 for reference), and during listening couldn't help but think that spotify wasn't good (likely due to cancelling tidal due to interface issues - another story), that something was off. I got to a song I knew well and had listened to recently that I also own the hirez version of, and when I heard it through spotify, I knew for sure that spotify sucked and that there was a layer of grunge or crud (a go to audiophile term) in playback. I listened to a few more songs and couldn't shake the fact that I thought spotify wasn't clear after hearing it "confirmed" with a reference song.

I decided to pull up the same song on JRiver and listen to the hirez version. Sure enough, it sounded exactly the same as spotify. For whatever reason, I had a personal belief blocking what I was hearing I guess. I listened to a few more songs that I knew were great recordings, and the crud I thought for sure I was hearing was gone. I switched back to spotify, listened to same few good recordings, and same deal, no more crud if you will. It's funny the impact our brains have on what we perceive.

Somewhat related, since getting the new setup, I've been eager to test hirez vs mp3, which I have several cd's of overlap. Me being sighted, every time I heard the new hirez, I knew for sure it was an improvement and could easily point out what I thought were the differences. I decided to test out if what I was hearing was so obvious, so I had my fiance and a friend listen as well. They both had no idea which was which, and usually picked the mp3 over a few tests. I'll need to recreate the test on myself, but I suspect I'll lose it as well.

Just a few anecdotes to throw among the plethora.
 
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amirm

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Just thought I'd shine some recent personal experience on the perception of audio...

Was listening to spotify the other day on my system (focal sopra 3s and devialet 220 for reference), and during listening couldn't help but think that spotify wasn't good (likely due to cancelling tidal due to interface issues - another story), that something was off. I got to a song I knew well and had listened to recently that I also own the hirez version of, and when I heard it through spotify, I knew for sure that spotify sucked and that there was a layer of grunge or crud (a go to audiophile term) in playback. I listened to a few more songs and couldn't shake the fact that I thought spotify wasn't clear after hearing it "confirmed" with a reference song.

I decided to pull up the same song on JRiver and listen to the hirez version. Sure enough, it sounded exactly the same as spotify. For whatever reason, I had a personal belief blocking what I was hearing I guess. I listened to a few more songs that I knew were great recordings, and the crud I thought for sure I was hearing was gone. I switched back to spotify, listened to same few good recordings, and same deal, no more crud if you will. It's funny the impact our brains have on what we perceive.
You have landed on a truism that has occurred to me many times. It is quite sobering and really shakes up one's belief in validity of ad-hoc listening tests we do.
 

Thomas savage

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Just thought I'd shine some recent personal experience on the perception of audio...

Was listening to spotify the other day on my system (focal sopra 3s and devialet 220 for reference), and during listening couldn't help but think that spotify wasn't good (likely due to cancelling tidal due to interface issues - another story), that something was off. I got to a song I knew well and had listened to recently that I also own the hirez version of, and when I heard it through spotify, I knew for sure that spotify sucked and that there was a layer of grunge or crud (a go to audiophile term) in playback. I listened to a few more songs and couldn't shake the fact that I thought spotify wasn't clear after hearing it "confirmed" with a reference song.

I decided to pull up the same song on JRiver and listen to the hirez version. Sure enough, it sounded exactly the same as spotify. For whatever reason, I had a personal belief blocking what I was hearing I guess. I listened to a few more songs that I knew were great recordings, and the crud I thought for sure I was hearing was gone. I switched back to spotify, listened to same few good recordings, and same deal, no more crud if you will. It's funny the impact our brains have on what we perceive.

Somewhat related, since getting the new setup, I've been eager to test hirez vs mp3, which I have several cd's of overlap. Me being sighted, every time I heard the new hirez, I knew for sure it was an improvement and could easily point out what I thought were the differences. I decided to test out if what I was hearing was so obvious, so I had my fiance and a friend listen as well. They both had no idea which was which, and usually picked the mp3 over a few tests. I'll need to recreate the test on myself, but I suspect I'll lose it as well.

Just a few anecdotes to throw among the plethora.
When one has to ( is brave enough to ) confront this truism it's a sobering revelation but at the same time liberating for those who are able to accept it. I think most of us here have had such a expirance.

( seems I just plagiarised amir :D)

Great write up, thanks for the post :)

As a side note, a few years back I watched a food program that had blind taste tests, a good proportion of the folks involved could not reliably differentiate between chicken, beef and pork!
 

fas42

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The "mp3 is bad!" thing has never been a mantra for me - mainly because the first time I heard such it was a burnt disk of WAV files that were derived from mp3; it sounded fine, and only after listening was I made aware of what the source was. End of story - nothing wrong with mp3, QED. But, mp3 + crap processing + crap playback system = lousy listening experience - if you make every link in the chain poor, guess what you're going to get ... ?
 

Intamin

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When one has to ( is brave enough to ) confront this truism it's a sobering revelation but at the same time liberating for those who are able to accept it. I think most of us here have had such a expirance.

( seems I just plagiarised amir :D)

Great write up, thanks for the post :)

As a side note, a few years back I watched a food program that had blind taste tests, a good proportion of the folks involved could not reliably differentiate between chicken, beef and pork!

Yep, quite sobering. The disappointing part, as someone who loves to tinker and constantly change/upgrade things, is that it leaves very few rational options to venture down.

The "mp3 is bad!" thing has never been a mantra for me - mainly because the first time I heard such it was a burnt disk of WAV files that were derived from mp3; it sounded fine, and only after listening was I made aware of what the source was. End of story - nothing wrong with mp3, QED. But, mp3 + crap processing + crap playback system = lousy listening experience - if you make every link in the chain poor, guess what you're going to get ... ?

I've never been on the mp3 is bad train per se, as I've always been a skeptic of all things high end. I've also not had a decent play back system for a couple of years now (moved to a new state and was stuck in apartment for 2ish years), and as such, now that streaming has become so much more convenient from when I was last doing it, I was excited to dive in and see what the new playback formats and hi-end offerings were. I thought my new system allowed me to hear something new, but the truth of the matter, it was just my eyes doing the hearing.

EDIT: Just had the test done on me on a song I'm intimately familiar with, and I was able to get the HD version vs MP3 version within about 15 seconds of the HD version playing. Not scientific by any means, and likely wouldn't be able to pick the two apart had I not conducted the same test on others to know explicitly what to listen for. I guess this shows that we can be trained, which matches up with studies I've seen before, but aside from that, I think I'd likely be guessing. When I have some more free time, I'll try some other songs that I'm not familiar with and just see what happens. Fun nonetheless.
 
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amirm

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Fidelity of lossy compression like MP3 is highly content dependent. The worst case situation is transients that are quiet otherwise. Acoustic string guitar is an example. The individual strikes of the strings become longer in duration and grungy. Compress them first at lower bit rate when the effect is quite pronounced. Then test at higher bit rate. Once you have heard the artifact, it is much easier to identify.

Note that this is a one-way street. You cannot untrain yourself. So you may not want to learn to hear those artifacts any more than you already do. :)
 
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