MQA now live on Tidal

[watchnerd]

I think that the behavior of such consumers is quite understandable. High end audio provides an emotional, somtimes, even a spiritual product use benefit/experience. Consumers in search of such benefits/experiences are bound to succumb to a certain amount of mysticism.

Sure, which is why we view sighted listening test of many things with skepticism.

Confirmation bias is inescapable.

Hence my remark re: DSD.

 

[Sal1950]

An important market segment for a niche industry such as is perfectionist audio. Big pocket customers help to fund R&D which can then trickle down to affordably priced products.

"Perfectionist Audio" isn't a term I'd use for this group. They seek looks and impressive price tags over all else. Wasting enormous amounts of money on multi kilobuck power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, gear in billet cases costing more then the insides, not to mention the fad of insanely priced LP playback gear.
I'd call that group Audiophoolist Audio

A real perfectionist would start at the measurements, combined with blind listening for which supporting evidence can be made. They would have little concern anything else.

 

[Thomas savage]

Ultrainsecureophiles ... Worry they aren't getting the 'absolute ' sound and having lost control of their own personal self and their surrounding domestic lives retreat into the hifi and transfer all sense of self onto it along with their constant sence of dissatisfaction .

They parent this like a over bearing mother, fussing constantly and though declaring the absolute sound continually seek to change and reinvent most likely because it's the only part of their lifes that they can change..

Chemical observations will include by not exclusive to low testosterone levels..,

Audiophiles became Ultrainsecureophiles

 

[RayDunzl]

How did I, a somewhat regular Joe and budding audiophile, interested in high-fidelity audio reproduction, avoid such an ignominious fate?

Or did I?

 

[Sal1950]

How did I, a somewhat regular Joe and budding audiophile, interested in high-fidelity audio reproduction, avoid such an ignominious fate?

Or did I?

Hummmmmmmmmm?

 

[watchnerd]

They parent this like a over bearing mother, fussing constantly and though declaring the absolute sound continually seek to change and reinvent most likely because it's the only part of their lifes that they can change..

Thomas what internal voice is driving you to think you might need / want a Class D amp for the bass?

Sounds like fussing to me...

 

[Thomas savage]

Thomas what internal voice is driving you to think you might need / want a Class D amp for the bass?

Sounds like fussing to me...

Nah, I'm not 'worrying' I'm more ' intrested' but most likely won't bother as all those extra wires to 'worry' about

( iv not changed my hifi for 18 months, that was new speakers as old ones were broken)

 

[watchnerd]

Nah, I'm not 'worrying' I'm more ' intrested' but most likely won't bother as all those extra wires to 'worry' about

( iv not changed my hifi for 18 months, that was new speakers as old ones were broken)

How does 18 months compare to your average?

 

[Thomas savage]

How does 18 months compare to your average?

I used to buy a few bits on eBay , trying various bits of kit but honestly I had a 2 year period where I lost my mind and spent to much, worried about everything as everything ' makes a diffrence' but these days don't care. Sounds good, other than pulling my hair out through equipment failures I just listen to music now.

The hifi press drive the insanity and if you know no better and slip into the ' hifi' world.. Reading reviews and chasing 'better' sound though what they recommend you go nutty.

Iv recovered now though the King of audio cured me

Back to tidal, you can Q&A me some place else

 

[watchnerd]

Back to tidal, you can Q&A me some place else

I've discovered MQA and I have an irreconcilable difference if using DSP invalidates the 'MQA Authentic' chain or whatever they call the state needed to turn on the blue light.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I've discovered MQA and I have an irreconcilable difference if using DSP invalidates the 'MQA Authentic' chain or whatever they call the state needed to turn on the blue light.

Right. MQA and other independent DSP, such as room EQ, are incompatible for now.

 

[Sal1950]

Right. MQA and other independent DSP, such as room EQ, are incompatible for now.

Now I'm having a senior block. Do one of the new software solutions like the Tidal desktop app or soon to be available media players output only analog or can you get a decoded digital stream in it's native data rate?
Will still oppose MQA for it's DRM like quality in any case.

 

[Don Hills]

As I understand it, MQA decoding is a multi-step process. The spectrum is "folded" twice during encoding.

MQA file = 24/48 (or 44.1), double folded.
If fed to a normal DAC,you get almost CD quality output.
If fed to an MQA DAC, it is double unfolded in the DAC and MQA "deblur" filter.

Tidal etc unfolds the MQA file to 24/96.
If fed to a normal DAC, you get almost 24/96 quality output.
If fed to an MQA DAC, the second unfold is done and fed through the MQA "deblur" filter.

Some DACs apparently lack the horsepower to do a full double decode, and require the first stage to be done before the DAC. I think one of the Dragonfly DACs is like this.

 

[Ken Newton]

...Will still oppose MQA for it's DRM like quality in any case.

Sal, just a few comments regarding the DRM aspect of MQA.

My understanding is that there is no DRM of any kind applied to the base rate (44.1 and 48) folded music content. No encryption, nor other hard copy control is employed. The protection strategy appears to be targeted only at the folded and hidden medium and high bandwidth add-on bands of the base content. There is a form of inherent copy protection of the folded bands simply because they must be 'unfolded' via the MQA algorithm in order to access them. This is kind of a neat idea once you consider it - CD quality music containing two levels of hidden higher quality versions of that music. Apparently, there's no specific copy protection applied to the two higher rez. information bands, they are scrambled and buried beneath the CD quality music channel as low level pseudo-noise, and remain there unless recovered by an MQA decoder.

So, it seems there's nothing to stop consumers from performing the kind of casual ripping and copying of MQA encoded content they have always done with plain old PCM content. However, the hidden higher resolution add-on band versions simply are not accessible without an MQA decoder. The protection strategy appears targeted at the double rate medium resolution, and especially, at the quad rate high resolution versions of the content. The higher resolution versions will be much more trouble to casually rip and copy by the average consumer, whom likely would simply traffic the low resolution (CD quality) 'folded' version between their friends as they've always done.

 

[Werner]

There is no double folding.

The first fold is clear: MQA takes a 96k original, splits it into 0-24k and 24-48k bands, and hides the second band under the noise of the first band.

Upon replay this is first unfolded, and then in a second stage upsampled to 192k (or even more) with a short filter that, in MQA speak, gives a time response as if it all were 192k start-to-end (allong with significant imaging). This is another x2 or x4 expansion, but nothing is unfolded as there is no hidden data left to unfold.

--

Likewise, at the encoder end, if the master was > 96k, say 192k, MQA starts out downsampling it to 96k using short filters that allow aliasing, but at the same time limit the aliasing in the audible range to below the programme's innate noise. Once at 96k the folding described above is done.

 

[Sal1950]

So, it seems there's nothing to stop consumers from performing the kind of casual ripping and copying of MQA encoded content they have always done with plain old PCM content. However, the hidden higher resolution add-on band versions simply are not accessible without an MQA decoder.

It's not really a matter of copying as much as a matter of access to true CD quality files without paying a $ price, this time not only to the labels but Meridan too.
Under the DRM umbrella ideal, if you wanted to copy a CD you would have to do it in the analog domain with the accompanying SQ loss.
In the case of Tidal (and others later), as the MQA files appear they replace the 16/44 lossless. Effectively the labels have had their DRM way, you can't copy a lossless CD file because you can't have a lossless file. Done, over, the labels had their way. The SQ degradation may not be very drastic but it exists none the less.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

It's not really a matter of copying as much as a matter of access to true CD quality files without paying a $ price, this time not only to the labels but Meridan too.
Under the DRM umbrella ideal, if you wanted to copy a CD you would have to do it in the analog domain with the accompanying SQ loss.
In the case of Tidal (and others later), as the MQA files appear they replace the 16/44 lossless. Effectively the labels have had their DRM way, you can't copy a lossless CD file because you can't have a lossless file. Done, over, the labels had their way. The SQ degradation may not be very drastic but it exists none the less.

You are confusing me and I think you are yourself confused. Without heroic efforts that I have not yet seen anyone report, you cannot copy ANY files from Tidal, as it is a streaming, not a downloading service. That in and of itself is a form of DRM that applies to ANY files, MQA or not, from any streaming service that takes steps to eliminate the possibility of copying the streams.

Incidentally, if another service, 2L for example, provides download files of MQA albums, they can be copied digitally and they retain all the attributes of MQA - multiple "folded" resolutions, time deblurring, etc., undegraded through multiple generations of bit perfect copies. There is no need to copy them in the analog domain. However, in the absence currently of an openly available MQA decoder, high resolution versions of the album could only be played via an MQA DAC. The standard RBCD resolution version of the album can be played on any DAC.

It has been crystal clear all along that RBCD resolution files that have been MQA processed could be played back without an MQA-enabled DAC. If this be so, I do not see how it qualifies as DRM. Obviously, you are at odds with Stuart, et al about the sonic impact of the deblurring timing adjustments MQA performs on files. They maintain it improves the sound. You maintain the opposite. Anyone who finds sonic degradation via Tidal, etc. of MQA files, whether played by an MQA DAC or not, will likely go elsewhere, as is their right. If persistent, this would kill both Tidal and MQA in the marketplace. Did I miss your report somewhere that you have actually heard this degradation yourself?

 

[RayDunzl]

Without heroic efforts

Send the stream to a digital recorder instead of a DAC.

Example:

https://www.amazon.com/DR-100mkII-2-Channel-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B006JVNTXO

You could probably just do it inside the PC for free with Audacity.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Send the stream to a digital recorder instead of a DAC.

Example:

https://www.amazon.com/DR-100mkII-2-Channel-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B006JVNTXO

You could probably just do it inside the PC for free with Audacity.

Maybe, but I am skeptical. I have heard of no one doing it.

 

[Don Hills]

There is no double folding. ...

Thanks, Werner. I was going on my memory of studying the patents and what I've seen in discussions, I haven't seen details of how it's actually done in the released version.