Mivera Audio DAC

[amirm]

But, as said in an earlier discussion thread, other like Putzeys and Grimm also found that surprisingly the low frequency jitter impact was much higher than expected.

They have shown nothing as far as the impact to your ears. Measuring DAC *clock* output can bother the eyes, not the ears!

It is important to not become subject of measureabating. Not every graph put in front of you is of value.

Now, if any improvements in DAC design makes the output better, I will get behind it even if it is hard to show audible improvements. I call that "engineering excellence."

Problem is, that data is not forthcoming. Instead, we are asked to take a leap of faith that what we see in subcomponent specs by our eyes, translates into what we hear with our ears.

I created this forum so that at least in this little patch of the Internet, we don't make that mistake.

 

[Mivera]

Okay it's settled. If Amir buys a DAC from me the 60 cent clock will be going in it. Man that will sure be easy. 1 day shipping from
Digikey, and straight off the reel to the DAC. Much easier than getting a white paper published at AES.

 

[amirm]

Okay it's settled. If Amir buys a DAC from me the 60 cent clock will be going in it. Man that will sure be easy. 1 day shipping from
Digikey, and straight off the reel to the DAC.

I am not buying anything from you. You don't have the qualifications or skills to build DACs.

You run around DIY forums and chase whatever is the hottest topic and stuff it in some assembly. That is not engineering. That's why you keep changing what you do.

Folks should read well-written articles on problems with what Mike is doing:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html

MEASUREMENT SUMMARY: While there are some differences, if you exclude the ancient TL072, everything else delivers very similar distortion performance, especially at more modest gains. There are perhaps more significant differences in noise performance and that’s where the NJM2068 excels. The NJM2068 might have slightly more high frequency distortion at 7X gain, but it also has 3 dB lower noise and uses 1/3 less power than the NE5532. The overwhelming conclusion is you can spend less than $1 to get performance well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Spending more doesn’t buy you anything useful in this typical application. Hopefully this article at least helps demonstrate there are not big differences between appropriate op amps in a well designed circuit. If you had a headphone amp with an NE5532, and tried to “upgrade it” to an OPA2134, you would only end up with about 3 dB more noise for your trouble.​

Listening tests have also been performed. See: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16029
Distortions in Audio Op-Amps and Their Effect on Listener Perception of Character and Quality Robert-Eric Gaskell , Peter E. Gaskell , and George Massenburg

 

[Mivera]

I am not buying anything from you. You don't have the qualifications or skills to build DACs.

You run around DIY forums and chase whatever is the hottest topic and stuff it in some assembly. That is not engineering. That's why you keep changing what you do.

Folks should read well-written articles on problems with what Mike is doing:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html

MEASUREMENT SUMMARY: While there are some differences, if you exclude the ancient TL072, everything else delivers very similar distortion performance, especially at more modest gains. There are perhaps more significant differences in noise performance and that’s where the NJM2068 excels. The NJM2068 might have slightly more high frequency distortion at 7X gain, but it also has 3 dB lower noise and uses 1/3 less power than the NE5532. The overwhelming conclusion is you can spend less than $1 to get performance well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Spending more doesn’t buy you anything useful in this typical application. Hopefully this article at least helps demonstrate there are not big differences between appropriate op amps in a well designed circuit. If you had a headphone amp with an NE5532, and tried to “upgrade it” to an OPA2134, you would only end up with about 3 dB more noise for your trouble.​

Listening tests have also been performed. See: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16029
Distortions in Audio Op-Amps and Their Effect on Listener Perception of Character and Quality Robert-Eric Gaskell , Peter E. Gaskell , and George Massenburg

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Well if that what I do it sure is a successful approach. Enough to land me loads of OEM work anyways. Along with 100% client satisfaction. The $3000 Purestream recently replaced Mike L's old $14000 Aqua Formula in the equipment rack a friend of yours in Seattle owns It took over $100000 of DAC for Mike to beat the Formula.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well if that what I do it sure is a successful approach. Enough to land me loads of OEM work anyways. Along with 100% client satisfaction. The $3000 Purestream recently replaced Mike L's old $14000 Aqua Formula in the equipment rack a friend of yours in Seattle owns It took over $100000 of DAC for Mike to beat the Formula.

Cool beans, bet they would love to hear all about this on WBF, CA, diyaudio .......oh

 

[Mivera]

Cool beans, bet they would love to hear all about this on WBF, CA, diyaudio .......oh

No the brand is too small, and price is too low. That will soon be changing though

 

[Mivera]

Wow I found a picture of that DAC right here in this thread:

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...s-home-and-sound-galleries-media-server.1267/

You should go listen to what recently replaced that DAC Amir. Unless you don't think the Revel Salon's you sold this fellow are resolving enough to make out the quality. Obviously they're too resolving to get good sound from any of the Mark Levinson DAC's you sell.

 

[alfe]

Well if he knew the relation between PSD and close-in phase noise and that the routine measurement for PSD is spectrum analyser ...

Another Chinese proverb:

1. Study without reflection is a waste of time.
   Reflection without study is dangerous.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well if he knew the relation between PSD and close-in phase noise and that the routine measurement for PSD is spectrum analyser ...

Another Chinese proverb:

1. Study without reflection is a waste of time.
   Reflection without study is dangerous.

All these Chinese proverbs, I'm wondering do you know who makes the best green tea?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Mike - maybe the truest words you have spoken here are that you are not a good marketing guy. But, you are not winning any technical arguments, either. On marketing, you are twisting and spinning, hyping, boasting, waving your arms, exaggerating and making a lot of stuff up to justify yourself in a forum where you are just wasting your time. No one here is going to buy your stuff simply because you are unable to make an honest case for it with proper measurements and listening tests.

If outsiders stumble across this, it cannot be anything but embarrassing for you. Why you persist is a mystery, as it always has been in any thread you have been in. You lost the debate many, many posts ago. Tying to counterpunch, change the subject and get the last word in only deepens the case against you. It is pathetic.

 

[alfe]

All these Chinese proverbs, I'm wondering do you know who makes the best green tea?

http://www.republicoftea.com/jasmine-jazz-green-full-leaf/p/v00608/

 

[Thomas savage]

Ok, let's not descend into all out unpleasantness.

@alfe thanks mate , it's was 50% joke 50% genuinely thought you might have a good idea about green tea. I need to swap out my in the week beer for a healthier option.

 

[alfe]

My friend Jack Daniels is too jealous I have no experience with any other liquid

 

[Mivera]

Thanks for the complements guys. And Amir just in case you are having trouble figuring out who this client of yours is, you also sold him JBL M2's for his home theater. He says they are a great home theater speaker. Not something he would listen to music with, but great for home theater.

 

[jabbr]

Well if he knew the relation between PSD and close-in phase noise and that the routine measurement for PSD is spectrum analyser ...

If you plot the spectrum of a pure sine wave signal, what should be a vertical line, spreads into a peak when phase noise is present. In laser inferometry phase noise correlates with "linewidth" ... but you need a mixer/delay/phase comparator before the spectrum analyzer and really high resolution helps if you want to get really close-in

 

[Mivera]

If you plot the spectrum of a pure sine wave signal, what should be a vertical line, spreads into a peak when phase noise is present. In laser inferometry phase noise correlates with "linewidth" ... but you need a mixer/delay/phase comparator before the spectrum analyzer and really high resolution helps if you want to get really close-in

Why not just use a Microsemi 5125A? I find using machines designed specifically for a single purpose do the best job at the task they're designed for.

 

[jabbr]

My friend Jack Daniels is too jealous I have no experience with any other liquid

Near here, practically every town has its own bourbon/whiskey, sort of like armagnac/brandy for you

 

[Thomas savage]

Near here, practically every town has its own bourbon/whiskey, sort of like armangac/brandy for you

This sounds promising..

 

[alfe]

If you plot the spectrum of a pure sine wave signal, what should be a vertical line, spreads into a peak when phase noise is present.

Depend of the definition you choose ,the one based on the PSD of the phase or the other based on the PSD of the signal itself.

 

[amirm]

Why not just use a Microsemi 5125A? I find using machines designed specifically for a single purpose do the best job at the task they're designed for.

Because the DAC may attenuate or amplify jitter. That change shows up in its analog output. Measuring the clock phase noise by itself, does not.