Finally I can sell my stillpoints!

[Mivera]

Mike aka Mivera

What don't you focus your marketing strategy on posting to Computer Audiophile and similar? People in this ASF forum do not seem to succumb to your charm, nor can they wrap their brain around the fact that 1 ps of jitter is clearly audible... Tough, stupid, ignorant crowd they are ...you know.

I think you have it backwards, most of my website hits come from ASR. Must be closet subjectvists.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think I've made enough sales from this thread to pay a few Porsche payments already. I think it's time to go buy a case of beer and some fine whiskey. I'll have a toast to ASR for a job well done If you guys are lucky, I may even post a pic to the beer thread after I'm drunk.

Yea after you have drunk that one bottle please post it

 

[Don Hills]

Who are you kidding? The website hits from this forum have been pouring in like wildfire. Can you say Caaaaa chinggggg?!!

All I'm seeing from you is lots of caca.

 

[Mivera]

Yea after you have drunk that one bottle please post it

Well I usually like to start on the beer, then move on to the whiskey. So you may have to wait

 

[DonH56]

Maybe Kool-Aid instead?

Good thing I can't hear 1 ps of jitter, saves me a lot of money. But I would've saved a lot more had I skipped the whole college education thing since that was obviously wasted on inaccurate knowledge...

The times lately I've discussed designs claiming what appear to be totally inaudible jitter claims making a big difference there have always been tangential issues resolved that provided the real improvements, like better grounding, better signal isolation, better decoupling, better whatever.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

It is clear from my vantage point what is being accomplished by Mike here. I would suggest not to stoop to this level. I am off and one more person will be on my ignore list

 

[Mivera]

Hi

It is clear from my vantage point what is being accomplished by Mike here. I would suggest not to stoop to this level. I am off and one more person will be on my ignore list

 

[amirm]

What blows my mind is with Harman's top line ,Mark Levinson, they share very little in the way of industry standard measurement data. And what they do share is sub-par at best. For example look at their $15000 integrated amp:
[...]

Wow that sure tells me a whole lot! Why should I buy this again? Something from Aliexpress for $500 can match those specs.

You got yourself confused. Unlike what you are assuming, I haven't advocated that you buy Mark Levinson electronics. You can buy them, or not buy them. It won't hurt my feelings one way or the other.

But whatever you do, if you go Aliexpress way, be sure to take it to someone who knows what they are doing to look inside and make sure it is safe. They usually come with no safety certification (or if they have it, they are fake), and many times they don't know what they are doing in that regard. If it is safe, measures well and sounds good, by all means you should buy it over that Mark Levinson amplifier.

 

[amirm]

On that topic, does your equipment come with safety and FCC/CE certification?

 

[March Audio]

If the measurements didn't produce the right outcome, then our real world feedback from clients would be much much different than it currently is. That's all I need to know to confirm we're on the right track.

Are you for real?

Go on any audio forum and you will find s plethora of delusional audiophiles who think they can hear a butterfly fart in another country.

Almost without exception a few simple experiments show their auditory abilities to no better than anyone elses and incapable of hearing the differences they claim.

Also that they hold beliefs based on bias, lack of understanding and matketing bullshit. What is your feedback based on? Subjective sighted listening?

You showing a video of a clock bring vibrated at, what 6g, has absolutely no relevence to its peformance affect on a dac vibrating at 3 parts of sweet fa.

First question, what do you believe the vibration levels to be in a dac?

 

[Mivera]

On that topic, does your equipment come with safety and FCC/CE certification?

Yes when the Mivera Audio beta testing program was still active, all components strictly adhered to the CE certification rules. However since we only work with OEM's now who have been in business for decades, you'll be able to sleep easy knowing they also build gear that adheres to the same strict standards.

 

[amirm]

Maybe Kool-Aid instead?

Good thing I can't hear 1 ps of jitter, saves me a lot of money. But I would've saved a lot more had I skipped the whole college education thing since that was obviously wasted on inaccurate knowledge...

The times lately I've discussed designs claiming what appear to be totally inaudible jitter claims making a big difference there have always been tangential issues resolved that provided the real improvements, like better grounding, better signal isolation, better decoupling, better whatever.

You are giving him more credit than is merited Don. We don't know if Mike has improved the jitter output of the DAC at all since he has not provided any measurements of that. He is assuming that because he went bought some good parts, that the whole system behaves that way. It is like someone putting better bearing on a wheel but not realizing that an out of round tire will destroy any benefit that might be there.

As you know, jitter is routinely induced into the DAC clock chip from other sources, not its own clock. And it is those deterministic jitters that could be problematic. As you noted, random jitter audibility is very high.

Here is a published paper on that: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_1_50/_pdf

As we see the threshold is several hundred nanoseconds, not picoseconds and certainly not a fraction of that.

Analog formats like tape and LP have incredible amount of low frequency jitter. If such problems were not masked, no one would listen to analog.

 

[Mivera]

Are you for real?

Go on any audio forum and you will find s plethora of delusional audiophiles who think they can hear a butterfly fart in another country.

Almost without exception a few simple experiments show their auditory abilities to no better than anyone elses and incapable of hearing the differences they claim.

Also that they hold beliefs based on bias, lack of understanding and matketing bullshit. What is your feedback based on? Subjective sighted listening?

You showing a video of a clock bring vibrated at, what 6g, has absolutely no relevence to its peformance affect on a dac vibrating at 3 parts of sweet fa.

First question, what do you believe the vibration levels to be in a dac?

My interest in this clock is for active speaker applications where there's lots of vibration present.

 

[Mivera]

You are giving him more credit than is merited Don. We don't know if Mike has improved the jitter output of the DAC at all since he has not provided any measurements of that. He is assuming that because he went bought some good parts, that the whole system behaves that way. It is like someone putting better bearing on a wheel but not realizing that an out of round tire will destroy any benefit that might be there.

As you know, jitter is routinely induced into the DAC clock chip from other sources, not its own clock. And it is those deterministic jitters that could be problematic. As you noted, random jitter audibility is very high.

Here is a published paper on that: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_1_50/_pdf

View attachment 6676

As we see the threshold is several hundred nanoseconds, not picoseconds and certainly not a fraction of that.

Analog formats like tape and LP have incredible amount of low frequency jitter. If such problems were not masked, no one would listen to analog.

Yes the power supply and the board layout is very critical. But at the end of the day those are only measures to not introduce further jitter. It's impossible to get any less jitter to the DAC chip than the master clock itself has. So a high quality DAC, starts with high quality parts. Following that you use high quality layouts, and impedance matched pcb traces. It comes in handy to hire industry veterans like Sonny Anderson, Daniel Weiss, and several others if you want to ensure everything is engineered and laid out in the finest manner possible.

 

[amirm]

Yes the power supply and the board layout is very critical. But at the end of the day those are only measures to not introduce further jitter. It's impossible to get any less jitter to the DAC chip than the master clock itself has. So a high quality DAC, starts with high quality parts. Following that you use high quality layouts, and impedance matched pcb traces. It comes in handy to hire industry veterans like Sonny Anderson, Daniel Weiss, and several others if you want to ensure everything is engineered and laid out in the finest manner possible.

Those are only the ingredients in the recipe. You must verify design efficacy using measurements of what comes out of the box. Do you not appreciate the importance of this?

 

[Mivera]

Those are only the ingredients in the recipe. You must verify design efficacy using measurements of what comes out of the box. Do you not appreciate the importance of this?

Of course. I already provided measurements of the clocks. As for the analog outputs of the DAC, it far exceeds anything in Mark Levinson's portfolio of products. But as you and I know, those measurements aren't as important. If they were, you wouldn't have Mark Levinson products in your personal rig. I tend to judge peoples true beliefs by what they do, not by what they say. By personally owning Mark Levinson, what you are actually saying is measurements only tell part of the story. Otherwise you would go for all Benchmark or something designed strictly to numbers.

 

[amirm]

Of course. I already provided measurements of the clocks. As for the analog outputs of the DAC, it far exceeds anything in Mark Levinson's portfolio of products. But as you and I know, those measurements aren't as important.

The measurements are absolutely important. They would for example show that you have not screwed up. So are they coming? Or is than excuse to say no?

If they were, you wouldn't have Mark Levinson products in your personal rig.

I bought my Mark Levinson DAC based on stereophile review showing superb measured performance at the time. Some 17 years later I still enjoy the unit. So you are wrong about that too.

I tend to judge peoples true beliefs by what they do, not by what they say. By personally owning Mark Levinson, what you are actually saying is measurements only tell part of the story. Otherwise you would go for all Benchmark or something designed strictly to numbers.

You don't know what I do. You assume you do. If I did not have my DAC, I would certainly look seriously at likes of Benchmark.

 

[Mivera]

The measurements are absolutely important. They would for example show that you have not screwed up. So are they coming? Or is than excuse to say no?


I bought my Mark Levinson DAC based on stereophile review showing superb measured performance at the time. Some 17 years later I still enjoy the unit. So you are wrong about that too.


You don't know what I do. You assume you do. If I did not have my DAC, I would certainly look seriously at likes of Benchmark.

I don't need to show the measurements from the output of my prototype DAC on a thread about jitter. I showed you jitter plots of the clocks we use, with some videos from TI demonstrating proper measurement techniques in the digital domain regarding jitter. This thread is about digital data, not analog.

So what amps do you own? How about speaker cable? Any pictures of your setup? I thought you have a Mark Levinson amp? All of the Mark Levinson amps on their website today measure quite poorly.

 

[amirm]

I don't need to show the measurements from the output of my prototype DAC on a thread about jitter. I showed you jitter plots of the clocks we use, with some videos from TI demonstrating proper measurement techniques in the digital domain regarding jitter. This thread is about digital data, not analog.

No one cares about digital data because we don't listen to it. The title of the thread is about getting rid of your stillpoints. Still looking for data to show the effectiveness of those versus the clock you post about.

Do you have any data here or your only case is to stomp your feet as hard as you can that it is so???

 

[amirm]

So what amps do you own? How about speaker cable? Any pictures of your setup? I thought you have a Mark Levinson amp? All of the Mark Levinson amps on their website today measure quite poorly.

See, when there are measurements then you can make judgment calls. Now I ask again, why do you not value measurements of your DAC? You bought into silicon because of measurements but then stopped there? Why? What happened to renting the AP and making measurements you promised us last year?